Padilla at $11.3M/per? Just keeps getting crazier!

[TheGreatGazoo]

Give it up... Gojays is completely correct.

[TrueBlueJay]

What is he right about?

I dont even know what the heck he is debating!

Is it that BJ Ryan's 2006 season wasnt one of the best of all time by a closer?

Is it that saves and save % is the more imporant stat for a closer?

Because my argument is that BJ had one of the best seasons, and that WHIP, followed closely by ERA, are more important than save #'s. They are the two most important stats by a reliever!

I'm not wrong.

Gazoo, if you havent already, I suggest you read the entire thread again. If you have already, then sorry you are mistaken.

[gojays2007]

Who had the better season and by how much?

Ryan:
72ip, 86k, 38sv 1.37era .85whip

Thigpen:
88ip, 70k, 57sv, 1.83era, 1.03whip

Where do you rank save percentage and inherited runners stranded/scored in your system?

[TrueBlueJay]

I'll answer that after I hear your answer, as I want to see you commit to one season.

I assume that you feel that Thigpen had the better season?

[gojays2007]

As stated, Once you reach a level of excellence, it is splitting hairs as to whose was "better". For that reason, many of the seasons listed along this thread could probably be about a wash for me. I value IP, Sv %, Save opps, era and whip where you value seemingly just era and whip.

Ryan:
72ip, 86k, 38sv 1.37era .85whip

Thigpen:
88ip, 70k, 57sv, 1.83era, 1.03whip

16 IP advantage Thigpen.
ERA and whip- edge to Ryan
sv perct: unknown in this case, 90 pct for ryan.
svs- edge to Thigpen.

Thigpen was unhittable over 88ip and Ryan was unhittable over 72ip. Both nearly as perfect as you are going to get. Probably close enough to call a wash but if I was not allowed to call it a wash, I would go with thigpen based on ip ( unknown sv pct that season, if anywhere it can be found, post it)

[Ultimate]

There are obviously different statistics that can be used to measure performance in closers and there are different ways to analyze information. You both have made some good points in your arguments. A dominant season is a dominant season and I would consider both of those guys to have dominated. ERA and WHIP are important stats in this discussion but as gojays said there are other things to look at as well.

[TrueBlueJay]

I would take Ryan's season.

Ryan's WHIP was an amazing 0.18 less than Thigpen's.

His ERA was a half run less.

He saved 57 games, but blew 8 saves. (source: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/awards/aw_reli.shtml)

The fact is, he only has so many saves and innings pitched because his TEAM put him in a position to get the save.

Its not BJ's fault that the Jays didnt have more save situations for him. BJ actually had a better save conversion % by converting 38 of 42.

So to sum it up:

-BJ has a significantly lower WHIP (0.18 lower)
-BJ has a significantly lower ERA (half a run)
-His opponents average is lower and he walked less batters per 9 innings (these 2 are obviously reflected in WHIP)
-He had a better save conversion % (90.5%) compared to Thigpen (87.7%)

The only 2 stats that Thigpen has BJ Ryan beat in are innings pitched (88 - 72 1/3) and saves (57-38). Saves is dependent on the team, you cant blame a guy for not being put in the situation. If BJ Ryan had been given 65 save opportunities, at his 2006 his save conversion % rate he would have had 59 saves.

You are right that it is a close call, but its in BJ's favour, not Thigpens. Look at the damn stats.

The bottom line is, both should be considered 2 of the greatest seasons by a reliever of all time.

Therefore, we get back to my original point, which was that BJ Ryan had one of the greatest seasons by a reliever.

You have tried everything in your power to fight me on this, when there was no reason to. I was originally correct with my statement.

Thanks for wasting my time.

[TrueBlueJay]

Originally Posted by Ultimate

There are obviously different statistics that can be used to measure performance in closers and there are different ways to analyze information. You both have made some good points in your arguments. A dominant season is a dominant season and I would consider both of those guys to have dominated. ERA and WHIP are important stats in this discussion but as gojays said there are other things to look at as well.

Yes, both seasons were among the best ever put up by a reliever.

But in regards to GoJays2007's points, he was wrong.

Thigpen had a worse rate than BJ.

Innings? Saves as a whole?

Its not BJ's fault he didnt get more innings. Yes, innings are a factor, but they are more a factor when you are comparing a 50 IP guy to a 100 IP guy. We're talking 72 IP to 88 IP here.

And saves? Saves arent a great way to compare guys. There are guys with 40+ saves who have far worse ERA and WHIP than BJ Ryan.

I agree that save % is a good stat, but BJ beats Thigpen in that as well.

And you see, I'm not trying to discount Thigpen's season. Rather, its GoJays who is trying to discount Ryans.

I think Thigpen's 1990 season was one of the best by a reliever. But I'm still waiting for GoJaysGo2007 to prove his point that BJ's 2006 season isnt one of the best by a reliever.

[gojays2007]

It is comparable to one of a number of probably 25 at least seasons.

Its not BJ's fault that the Jays didnt have more save situations for him. BJ actually had a better save conversion % by converting 38 of 42.

No argument there.

-BJ has a significantly lower WHIP (0.18 lower)

So about 2 baserunners less a month.

Saves arent a great way to compare guys

Agreed, to an extent. You can't deny the pressure situation of a save however. Many relievers have been awesome set up men for the 8th inning but cannot close out the 9th worth a lick, (see FRod). You cannot completely discount that which I feel you are doing.

The difference between ip is 22 percent, hardly low enough to sneeze at.

Rather, its GoJays who is trying to discount Ryans.

This is all in your head.

There are guys with 40+ saves who have far worse ERA and WHIP than BJ Ryan.

No kidding. Even if 2.50 era is so bad.

Again: For relievers, Where do you rank inherited runners stranded/scored in your system? Relievers ERA is far from a great stat to show their effectiveness. That is common knowledge.

If BJ Ryan had been given 65 save opportunities, at his 2006 his save conversion % rate he would have had 59 saves.

If you automatically assume those last 16ip or 22% are identical to his actual stats. Maybe yes, maybe no. 36svs at 90 percent or 57saves at 87 percent, which was more impressive?

GoJaysGo2007

It's GoJays

Thanks for wasting my time.

Really? What is with the attitude? Just because I may say things that you may not be able to comprehend in your infinite wisdom does not make the arguement less valid.

[TrueBlueJay]

you really don't like WHIP as a stat do you?

You treat pitchers with differences of 0.18 as if they are essentially the same, when they are not.

Those "2 extra runners on base per month" could equate to 2 blown saves a month by a reliever.

Again: For relievers, Where do you rank inherited runners stranded/scored in your system? Relievers ERA is far from a great stat to show their effectiveness. That is common knowledge.

I don't have a "system". I just have a good knowledge of stats and personally value core stats like ERA, WHIP over stats like saves, or wins.

an inherited runners stranded stat would be a good general stat for a reliever. A player who is great at stranding numbers would also have a great ERA and a great WHIP, wouldn't he?

If you automatically assume those last 16ip or 22% are identical to his actual stats. Maybe yes, maybe no. 36svs at 90 percent or 57saves at 87 percent, which was more impressive?

it was 38 saves not 36. And what I find impressive is that the Thigpen actually had SIXTY FIVE save opportunities. That has to be a record. Whats unbelievable is that his team had so many close games that he an opportunity to save 57 games, despite blowing 8.

Really? What is with the attitude? Just because I may say things that you may not be able to comprehend in your infinite wisdom does not make the arguement less valid

The attitude here is that you've completely derailed this thread and wasted a lot of my time. I made a simple point that BJ Ryan had one of the best seasons by a reliever and therefore was worth his contract, and you have continued to go in circles. You have not proven otherwise, and you've wasted an incredible amount of both of your times over nothing. Some of the things you brought up had absolutely nothing to do with the orginal point! It seemed at times like you were just trying to waste my time.

[gojays2007]

For the next group, please rank these 4 seasons:

Ryan:
72ip, 86k, 1.37era .85whip 38sv

141.7 130k 1.84 1.19 26sv
133.0 151k 1.62 0.95 26sv
134.3 122k 2.01 1.08 27sv

[TrueBlueJay]

1.In his 72 IP, Ryan was far more effective. It remains to be seen how he would fare if he threw another 60 IP to catch up to the others. However ignoring BJ, in the 3 seasons you listed, the middle one is better than the other 2.

2. I am not going to be sucked into wasting anymore time with you.

[Escobar]

We sort of strayed away from the original topic but oh well. If that’s the price it took to get Ryan in a Toronto uniform so be it. Let’s not forget being perennial third place finishers, being in the same division as the Yankees and Boston, and the “Canada factor” we would have had to slightly overpay as an incentive to get star players up here.

It’s not like we have a pool of free agent players just lining up to play for the jays here. Perhaps if we were a contending team players would be willing to tradeoff some income in exchange for being on a playoff team, but we’re not there yet.

On another note Ryan was Jays best addition last year, he would be the last person I would ridicule J.P. for overspending on, especially after all those years of nervous 9th innings.

[TrueBlueJay]

Yeah, thankfully he helped me forget all about Miggy Batista

[gojays2007]

In his 72 IP, Ryan was far more effective.

Far more? Really? How bout "Slightly more" or "as effective"

It remains to be seen how he would fare if he threw another 60 IP to catch up to the others.

I didn't catch your final rankings of the 4 there, what where they?

And Again: For relievers, Where do you rank inherited runners stranded/scored in your system?


2. I am not going to be sucked into wasting anymore time with you.
or
If you want to debate whether or not BJ Ryan's 2006 season is one of the greatest by a reliever, fine, thats what this forum is for.