Gord Ash vs. JP Ricciardi

85Jays · 10-24-2007, 01:23 PM

Gord: Good drafting, but an expensive Major League team that was never going anywhere, healthy or unhealthy.

JP: Lousy drafting, but a Major League team that, while expensive, good be "good" if healthy ... though health will always be a major question mark, considering the players on the team.

Gord: Good pedigree. Learned the ropes under Gillick, but nothing seemed to take ... though he wisely kept the scouts that Gillick hired.

JP: Good pedigree. Learned the ropes from Beane ... but sucked at implimenting Beane's plan.

I'm torn. Gord had a better foundation to build upon, and squandered it. JP brought a road map with him, but couldn't follow it.

gojays2007 · 10-25-2007, 08:55 AM

I hope JP falls into a bucket of SARS.

85Jays · 10-25-2007, 09:09 AM

We don't have SARS anymore. The only thing we have right now is an annoying sinus infection that's sweeping the city. It gives you headaches, a runny nose, and makes you feel lightheaded all the time. Perhaps JP already has this illness.

85Jays · 10-25-2007, 11:57 AM

Come to think of it, SARS appeared shortly after JP took over the team, and didn't make it through his second season. Just another acquisition that didn't last during the JP era in Toronto.

gojays2007 · 10-27-2007, 09:14 AM

I hope he falls into a washing machine with Magic Johnson and a bunch of boxcutters than.

85Jays · 10-30-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gojays2007

I hope he falls into a washing machine with Magic Johnson and a bunch of boxcutters than.

That's not a very nice thing to do to Magic.

gojays2007 · 10-31-2007, 04:35 PM

He is healthier than you and I put together!

85Jays · 11-01-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gojays2007

He is healthier than you and I put together!

That's a given. I don't think putting you and me together would be a terribly healthy combination.

gojays2007 · 11-02-2007, 08:44 AM

would be a medium sized pimp with awkward facial hair and a pennslyvania-canadien accent.

tr0mbone · 11-04-2007, 07:29 PM

I think in the end, JP just seems to suck when it comes to dealing with the media and the fans.

His drafting was suspect only based on results though. (all 'results' are care of The Baseball Cube - Player Statistics, Biographies and Baseball History - quality site). Ash managed to find some interesting players, but his management of the farm system left gaping holes in the cub boards. JP needed to build a team and rebuild a farm system.

If you check out the 1999-2001 drafts (the last ones for Ash) we see the following results:
Gabe Gross (2001, Brewers)
Brandon League (2001, Jays)
Mike Rouse (2001, Traded to Oakland for Cory Lidle)
Dustin McGowan (2000, Guess)
Vinnie Chulk (2000, Traded to San Fran for Jeremy Accardo)
Alex Rios (1999, T.)
Reed Johnson (1999, Sparky)

A little bit of weird I can't figure out is why they drafted Chris Jones in the 47th round of 2001... odd.

Anyway, Dustin, Alex and Reed stick out. The rankings for these drafts years are: 17 (1999), 15 (2000), 7 (2001).

For JP's drafts:

David Bush (2002, Brewers)
Aaron Hill (2003, They fly)
Shawn Marcum (2003, Us)
Zach Jackson (2004, Brewers)
Casey Janssen (2004)
Adam Lind (2004)
Jessie Litsch (2004)

The Rankings are: 10 (2002), 3 (2003), 4 (2004), 29 (2005), 26 (2006), 16 (2007)
His first draft didn't pan out as well but the next two were very productive. It looks to me that Ash wanted to build his draft around a big player like Dustin or Rios and then see what he can get with the other picks. Its a rather risky maneuver but the results can be pretty fantastic. JP didn't pick many All-Stars... Hill might garner a pick some day and if Lind pans out he may too... but he did pick plenty of major league players. He tended towards lower risk College players. In 2002, he picked 2 High School or Junior College players in the first 10 rounds. In 2003, none. In 2004, none. in 2005, none (the 11th pick was, though). In 2006, 2... with Snyder as the first pick). In 2007, we have JP's first real draft with 6 HS selections in the first 10 rounds. This was a huge draft for JP with so many first and 2nd round selections.

I think these results just show that he followed his plan as best as he could. Prospects are a bit of a craps shoot anyway. Once he got in the job though, he spent 3 years picking only low risk prospects to pump through the farm system. They picked enough of the same that in the end, one or two would work out from each draft. 2004 looks like his best year of this strategy with 5 players in the ML and 5 or 6 more guys that may work out. in 2006 he switched it up and used a nice first round selection to grab Travis Snyder. The 2006 draft stocked the farms with prospects that will soon begin filtering their way up the list.

One last thing... The GM should have a bit of control over the overall value of the entire organization. check out: The Value Production Standings:* 2005-2007 -- The Hardball Times The Jays have had the best farm system in the East for the past decade. Its a little frustrating though, as most of the best players produced are on other teams.

I may be a bit of a fan-man, but it really seems like this is the start of a golden age again. The pieces are falling into place so that after about 3 years were going to have some aging stars being replaced by some rising ones. I think JP is doing fine now... it was a little shaky for a bit there but he's finally come around in at least his drafting strategy.

Now if only he could find someone to deal with the media for him.

gojays2007 · 11-25-2007, 07:41 AM

worst forum ever? Anyone has 3 days to reject this claim.

85Jays · 11-26-2007, 12:42 PM

That depends on whether you consider www.gojaysisawesome.com a forum or a simple blog.

gojays2007 · 11-29-2007, 11:10 AM

10-24-2007, 01:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
85Jays Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 36	Gord Ash vs. JP Ricciardi Gord: Good drafting, but an expensive Major League team that was never going anywhere, healthy or unhealthy. JP: Lousy drafting, but a Major League team that, while expensive, good be "good" if healthy ... though health will always be a major question mark, considering the players on the team. Gord: Good pedigree. Learned the ropes under Gillick, but nothing seemed to take ... though he wisely kept the scouts that Gillick hired. JP: Good pedigree. Learned the ropes from Beane ... but sucked at implimenting Beane's plan. I'm torn. Gord had a better foundation to build upon, and squandered it. JP brought a road map with him, but couldn't follow it.

11-29-2007, 11:10 AM	#13 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	nope

10-25-2007, 08:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	I hope JP falls into a bucket of SARS.

10-25-2007, 09:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
85Jays Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 36	We don't have SARS anymore. The only thing we have right now is an annoying sinus infection that's sweeping the city. It gives you headaches, a runny nose, and makes you feel lightheaded all the time. Perhaps JP already has this illness.

10-25-2007, 11:57 AM	#4 (permalink)
85Jays Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 36	Come to think of it, SARS appeared shortly after JP took over the team, and didn't make it through his second season. Just another acquisition that didn't last during the JP era in Toronto.

10-27-2007, 09:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	I hope he falls into a washing machine with Magic Johnson and a bunch of boxcutters than.

10-31-2007, 04:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	He is healthier than you and I put together!

11-02-2007, 08:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	would be a medium sized pimp with awkward facial hair and a pennslyvania-canadien accent.

11-04-2007, 07:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
tr0mbone New Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1	I think in the end, JP just seems to suck when it comes to dealing with the media and the fans. His drafting was suspect only based on results though. (all 'results' are care of The Baseball Cube - Player Statistics, Biographies and Baseball History - quality site). Ash managed to find some interesting players, but his management of the farm system left gaping holes in the cub boards. JP needed to build a team and rebuild a farm system. If you check out the 1999-2001 drafts (the last ones for Ash) we see the following results: Gabe Gross (2001, Brewers) Brandon League (2001, Jays) Mike Rouse (2001, Traded to Oakland for Cory Lidle) Dustin McGowan (2000, Guess) Vinnie Chulk (2000, Traded to San Fran for Jeremy Accardo) Alex Rios (1999, T.) Reed Johnson (1999, Sparky) A little bit of weird I can't figure out is why they drafted Chris Jones in the 47th round of 2001... odd. Anyway, Dustin, Alex and Reed stick out. The rankings for these drafts years are: 17 (1999), 15 (2000), 7 (2001). For JP's drafts: David Bush (2002, Brewers) Aaron Hill (2003, They fly) Shawn Marcum (2003, Us) Zach Jackson (2004, Brewers) Casey Janssen (2004) Adam Lind (2004) Jessie Litsch (2004) The Rankings are: 10 (2002), 3 (2003), 4 (2004), 29 (2005), 26 (2006), 16 (2007) His first draft didn't pan out as well but the next two were very productive. It looks to me that Ash wanted to build his draft around a big player like Dustin or Rios and then see what he can get with the other picks. Its a rather risky maneuver but the results can be pretty fantastic. JP didn't pick many All-Stars... Hill might garner a pick some day and if Lind pans out he may too... but he did pick plenty of major league players. He tended towards lower risk College players. In 2002, he picked 2 High School or Junior College players in the first 10 rounds. In 2003, none. In 2004, none. in 2005, none (the 11th pick was, though). In 2006, 2... with Snyder as the first pick). In 2007, we have JP's first real draft with 6 HS selections in the first 10 rounds. This was a huge draft for JP with so many first and 2nd round selections. I think these results just show that he followed his plan as best as he could. Prospects are a bit of a craps shoot anyway. Once he got in the job though, he spent 3 years picking only low risk prospects to pump through the farm system. They picked enough of the same that in the end, one or two would work out from each draft. 2004 looks like his best year of this strategy with 5 players in the ML and 5 or 6 more guys that may work out. in 2006 he switched it up and used a nice first round selection to grab Travis Snyder. The 2006 draft stocked the farms with prospects that will soon begin filtering their way up the list. One last thing... The GM should have a bit of control over the overall value of the entire organization. check out: The Value Production Standings:* 2005-2007 -- The Hardball Times The Jays have had the best farm system in the East for the past decade. Its a little frustrating though, as most of the best players produced are on other teams. I may be a bit of a fan-man, but it really seems like this is the start of a golden age again. The pieces are falling into place so that after about 3 years were going to have some aging stars being replaced by some rising ones. I think JP is doing fine now... it was a little shaky for a bit there but he's finally come around in at least his drafting strategy. Now if only he could find someone to deal with the media for him.

11-25-2007, 07:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
gojays2007 Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 177	worst forum ever? Anyone has 3 days to reject this claim.

11-26-2007, 12:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
85Jays Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 36	That depends on whether you consider www.gojaysisawesome.com a forum or a simple blog.