Submarine/Sidearm Pitchers

sfcoach08 · 02-01-2008, 09:50 AM

I have been in baseball for quite awhile. I now have a submarine pitcher that is deadly b/c of his arm action. He can get batters out even though he does not possess the velocity many guys his age have. The problem that I am running into is I don't know that much about how to coach him when he starts missing. He asks questions about how to tweak mechanics but I am no help b/c all I have ever dealt with is over-the-top pitching.

I could really use some pointers if anyone can give me any.

Thanks

bedir than average · 02-01-2008, 06:19 PM

coach, I'm going to ask some fellow bloggers about this who might have some knowledge or be able to pass you an email or two.

But I would love to know if you are using him as a reliever or starter primarily, because from what I've noticed from watching guys like this in the majors is that they seem to do worse as the game goes on due to hitters catching up to the to deception - think Byung Yung-Kim.

I will get back to you

sfcoach08 · 02-01-2008, 07:44 PM

Thank you. Right now he will be used primarily as a reliever due to the fact that there are not many pitchers in the area like him. He will be able to get a lot of outs but I don't want people to see him too much. He will make an occasional start, especially against the teams that are not as strong of hitters. I for sure will use him as a starter in tournaments when there are not a lot of teams from our district there to see him. We have a couple of tournaments that are primarily teams from the surrounding states that are close by that he will start in.

I appreciate the help very much!

Thanks

nanwynnfan · 02-05-2008, 05:03 PM

Coach:

I found this bit from Rob Neyer, which kind of supports what I was going to suggest:

"As one of the by-products of this research, I've identified 18 submarine pitchers, including Kim, in the major leagues or the Negro Leagues. I'm sure there are more, perhaps many more, but I do think we've found all of them with substantial careers. And looking these submariners, it's pretty apparent that Kim is a sort of pitcher that we haven't seen in a long, long time.

"Submariners generally fall into the same class, pitch-wise. Most of them throw a sinker or sinking fastball (sometimes those terms describe the same pitch, sometimes they don't), along with a curve or (less commonly) a slider. In the 1930s, Elden Auker threw a sinker and a curve. In the 1970s, Kent Tekulve threw a sinker and a slider. In the 1980s, Dan Quisenberry threw a (slow) sinker and a curve. Today, Chad Bradford throws a sinker and a curve.

"The single feature common to every submariner since Auker is a lack of velocity. Yes, all these guys threw "fastballs" of one sort or another, but they weren't fastballs (if you take my meaning)."

The key point here is that a true submarine ball pitcher does not match up with the scary prospects of an exaggerated sidearmer, like old Ewell Blackwell who threw what thet called "crossfire" fastballs, very intimidating to same-handed hitters and away from opposite-handed hitters.

The true submariner is at his best when he sacrifices speed for movement and location, since the ball will tend to drop away from the power zone. A submarine guy going to blow it by hitters will invariably get the ball up into the hitter's wheelhouse; and that's when the wheels come off. It also saves his arm and an effective submariner will have few arm troubles if he doesn't strain for power.

A more recent guy like Myers was at his peak more a crossfire pitcher, now tranformed more into a sub.

Rob Neyer

sfcoach08 · 02-05-2008, 07:29 PM

Man that helps explain a lot. I have had trouble with his accuracy when he throws hard and this tells a lot of what I need to be expecting from him.

If you can find anything else I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

Harnageboy · 03-04-2008, 09:02 PM

hey coach
im a junior in high school and ive been throwing submarine for 3 years now and i have never had any coaching on submarineing for about 2 years. I have alot of success throwing this way and encourage it to anyone. The best thing to do for a side arm or submariner is to not start him at throwing to low at first. start him sidearm and have him when he is ready to move lower to the ground. also if he gets in a slump make sure he isnt rushing his mechanics. in some cases rushing your machenics increases velocity and decreases movement on the ball. thats not what you want a submariner to do. Also video tape hlm if you can and sit down and have him watch what he is doing.
also make sure he is using his back legs to push of the mound and really trying to reach out to the plate. the ball should have lots of natrual movenment on it and he shouldnt be trying for any more movement than what he can handle. my fastball breaks 11-5 slider 3-9 these are the two pitches i would have him work on cause of the difference in movement. After you feel he has done good with those two have him throw in a change up.

Prentiss · 05-10-2008, 09:33 PM

My son is 11 and has been watching the O's Chad Bradford. he pitches for his team (regular style, no curve balls) and has recently discovered he can throw a submarine ball with pretty good accuracy. I'm concerned he will hurt his arm and I haven't been able to find any definitive information about if its better for the arm or worse. Any information you have would be appreciated.

wabaseball20 · 06-05-2008, 05:46 PM

i am 16 and have been pitching submarine for about 2 months and have had good sucess except for the fact i cant seem to throw a breaking ball (curve or slider) all of them have the spin but all it does is rise up and stay up and nevers breaks, any tips on how to throw and breaking ball

02-01-2008, 09:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
sfcoach08 Rookie Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 5	Submarine/Sidearm Pitchers I have been in baseball for quite awhile. I now have a submarine pitcher that is deadly b/c of his arm action. He can get batters out even though he does not possess the velocity many guys his age have. The problem that I am running into is I don't know that much about how to coach him when he starts missing. He asks questions about how to tweak mechanics but I am no help b/c all I have ever dealt with is over-the-top pitching. I could really use some pointers if anyone can give me any. Thanks __________________ Coach Beau Warrior Baseball

02-01-2008, 06:19 PM	#2 (permalink)
bedir than average Administrator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Starbucks Posts: 8,256	coach, I'm going to ask some fellow bloggers about this who might have some knowledge or be able to pass you an email or two. But I would love to know if you are using him as a reliever or starter primarily, because from what I've noticed from watching guys like this in the majors is that they seem to do worse as the game goes on due to hitters catching up to the to deception - think Byung Yung-Kim. I will get back to you __________________ US Men's National Team World Cup Qualifying \| Democracy in Sports Meets My First Campaign "You're only so sure you're right because they're so sure you're wrong." Orson Scott Card in Xenocide

02-01-2008, 07:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
sfcoach08 Rookie Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 5	Thank you. Right now he will be used primarily as a reliever due to the fact that there are not many pitchers in the area like him. He will be able to get a lot of outs but I don't want people to see him too much. He will make an occasional start, especially against the teams that are not as strong of hitters. I for sure will use him as a starter in tournaments when there are not a lot of teams from our district there to see him. We have a couple of tournaments that are primarily teams from the surrounding states that are close by that he will start in. I appreciate the help very much! Thanks __________________ Coach Beau Warrior Baseball

02-05-2008, 05:03 PM	#4 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	Coach: I found this bit from Rob Neyer, which kind of supports what I was going to suggest: "As one of the by-products of this research, I've identified 18 submarine pitchers, including Kim, in the major leagues or the Negro Leagues. I'm sure there are more, perhaps many more, but I do think we've found all of them with substantial careers. And looking these submariners, it's pretty apparent that Kim is a sort of pitcher that we haven't seen in a long, long time. "Submariners generally fall into the same class, pitch-wise. Most of them throw a sinker or sinking fastball (sometimes those terms describe the same pitch, sometimes they don't), along with a curve or (less commonly) a slider. In the 1930s, Elden Auker threw a sinker and a curve. In the 1970s, Kent Tekulve threw a sinker and a slider. In the 1980s, Dan Quisenberry threw a (slow) sinker and a curve. Today, Chad Bradford throws a sinker and a curve. "The single feature common to every submariner since Auker is a lack of velocity. Yes, all these guys threw "fastballs" of one sort or another, but they weren't fastballs (if you take my meaning)." The key point here is that a true submarine ball pitcher does not match up with the scary prospects of an exaggerated sidearmer, like old Ewell Blackwell who threw what thet called "crossfire" fastballs, very intimidating to same-handed hitters and away from opposite-handed hitters. The true submariner is at his best when he sacrifices speed for movement and location, since the ball will tend to drop away from the power zone. A submarine guy going to blow it by hitters will invariably get the ball up into the hitter's wheelhouse; and that's when the wheels come off. It also saves his arm and an effective submariner will have few arm troubles if he doesn't strain for power. A more recent guy like Myers was at his peak more a crossfire pitcher, now tranformed more into a sub. Rob Neyer Last edited by nanwynnfan; 02-05-2008 at 05:06 PM.

02-05-2008, 07:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
sfcoach08 Rookie Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Louisiana Posts: 5	Man that helps explain a lot. I have had trouble with his accuracy when he throws hard and this tells a lot of what I need to be expecting from him. If you can find anything else I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, __________________ Coach Beau Warrior Baseball

03-04-2008, 09:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
Harnageboy New Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1	hey coach im a junior in high school and ive been throwing submarine for 3 years now and i have never had any coaching on submarineing for about 2 years. I have alot of success throwing this way and encourage it to anyone. The best thing to do for a side arm or submariner is to not start him at throwing to low at first. start him sidearm and have him when he is ready to move lower to the ground. also if he gets in a slump make sure he isnt rushing his mechanics. in some cases rushing your machenics increases velocity and decreases movement on the ball. thats not what you want a submariner to do. Also video tape hlm if you can and sit down and have him watch what he is doing. also make sure he is using his back legs to push of the mound and really trying to reach out to the plate. the ball should have lots of natrual movenment on it and he shouldnt be trying for any more movement than what he can handle. my fastball breaks 11-5 slider 3-9 these are the two pitches i would have him work on cause of the difference in movement. After you feel he has done good with those two have him throw in a change up.

05-10-2008, 09:33 PM	#7 (permalink)
Prentiss New Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1	Submariner My son is 11 and has been watching the O's Chad Bradford. he pitches for his team (regular style, no curve balls) and has recently discovered he can throw a submarine ball with pretty good accuracy. I'm concerned he will hurt his arm and I haven't been able to find any definitive information about if its better for the arm or worse. Any information you have would be appreciated.

06-05-2008, 05:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
wabaseball20 New Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1	i am 16 and have been pitching submarine for about 2 months and have had good sucess except for the fact i cant seem to throw a breaking ball (curve or slider) all of them have the spin but all it does is rise up and stay up and nevers breaks, any tips on how to throw and breaking ball