"First-and-Third" plays

MuffinMcFluffin · 12-03-2006, 05:33 PM

This is sort of a more amateur-related topic, but I was wondering if anybody knew of some pretty okay 1st and 3rd plays in baseball/softball. I know of the following that we've been taught:

- Straight throwdown to second.
- Throw to third
- Throw back to pitcher
- Fake-throw
- Throwdown to second, but 2nd baseman cuts the ball off

Are there any other decent ones that people know of that they could help me organize? If so, thanks.

MuffinMcFluffin · 03-04-2007, 12:15 PM

Bump

Anything?

nanwynnfan · 03-04-2007, 04:48 PM

The only one I can think of is the "hidden ball" play, in which time is called for a conference on the mound.

Typically, the catcher, pitcher, 1B and 3B confab around the mound to discuss strategy; but when the conference breaks up, someone other than the pitcher has the ball.

If a runner and the base coaches are napping, someone takes a lead and is tagged out by the IF "hiding" the ball.

Before you dismiss it as ridiculous, it's a old play, which occasionally works, even at the MLB level, up to today.

Rice4HoF · 03-06-2007, 12:13 AM

I saw that one tried in my son's youth league last year. Against our team. The umpire called the runner on 3rd base out. I called "time" and asked the base ump where the pitcher was standing when the play was made. He said "on the mound". I reminded him that if a pitcher is on the mound, pretending to be ready to pitch and doesn't have the ball, it's a balk. He conferred with the home plate ump, and they reversed the call and called a balk, awarding the runner home plate. We won the game by 1 run

Rice4HoF · 03-06-2007, 12:15 AM

To answer the original question, another one my son's team uses which is a variation on throwing to 2nd base, is throwing to the shortstop. That can work a bit better, as the runner on 3rd will often take a few steps, realize it's a trick play and try getting back, but the shortstop is closer to 3rd and more likely to get him there, than the second baseman would.

nanwynnfan · 03-06-2007, 12:29 AM

RE: the balk [on the hidden ball]:

"However, the hidden ball trick is illegal (and a balk is called) if the pitcher is standing on or astride the pitcher's rubber.

Third baseman Matt Williams used a different technique; on more than one occasion, he asked the runner to step off the bag so that Williams could sweep the dirt off of it, then tagged out the runner when the runner complied.

There have been fewer than 300 successful executions of the hidden ball trick in Major League Baseball."

Just to clarify, the balk is called only IF the pitcher is standing ON or ASTRIDE the pitcher's RUBBER. The mound does NOT qualify as balk territory.

Goose · 03-06-2007, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

Third baseman Matt Williams used a different technique; on more than one occasion, he asked the runner to step off the bag so that Williams could sweep the dirt off of it, then tagged out the runner when the runner complied.

That's awesome.

The last Hidden Ball Trick I can remember seeing is one Mike Lowell did in 2005. I think it was against the Brewers.

ScoutingBook · 03-29-2007, 02:14 AM

The hardest play for a 1B to learn, I think, is the pickoff that causes the runner to break for second (instead of coming back to first). The 1B needs to step INTO the throw from the pitcher so that he has an angle from which to throw to second. (Otherwise he's blocked by the runner.)

Learning to do that (move forward quickly if the runner breaks) is hard.

jtur88 · 04-25-2007, 06:35 AM

If Time has been called for the conference on the mound, the pitcher can step wherever he wants, with or without the ball, until the umpire calls Play. Then, the ball is in Play only after the pitcher steps on the rubber holding the ball. If the infielder has the ball and the umpire calls Play and the pitcher steps on the ribber, it is not necessarily a Balk---this becomes a knotty question. I'm not sure a balk can be called when the ball has not yet been put in Play. However, if a runner is then tagged with the ball, it is meaningless, since the ball is not yet in Play. In other words, the runner cannot be tagged out with a ball that is not In Play, and the ball is not In Play until the pitcher puts it In Play by stepping on the rubber with the ball in his hand.

LongtimeBravesFan · 05-07-2007, 08:00 PM

If you throw to an unoccupied base, it is a balk.

Rule 8.05d

link

jtur88 · 05-10-2007, 04:36 PM

[[[ 5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his
possession. ]]]
-------------
So, if time has been called, a pitcher cannot be charged with a Balk for any infraction that occurs priot to the pitcher stepping on the rubber with a ball in his possession AND the umpire calling 'Play' when he deems that all players on the fierld are ready to resume play. Nor can any runner be put out, nor advance any base, prior to such occurrence.

Having said that, it seems that Time is not necessarilty called just because the defense has a conference. Presumably, defensive players can meet for a conference on the field WITHOUT calling time, and I don't think the umpire is obliged to call time in such a case, on his own discretion. So, a runner can run from one base to the next during a conference on the mound, IF the defense has not bothered to ask for Time before conferring. And any player holding the ball can throw it to any base in such an event, provided it is not the pitcher with his foot on the rubber who is doing so.

Calling Time is an important protocal in baseball. Calling Time freezes the game, and then requires everyone to resume a last legal position to restart. That is, all runners at their correct bases, defense in proper alignment, batter ready to bat, and pitcher on the rubber with a ball. Nothing can be done by either team to gain an advantage while Time is called.

jtur88 · 05-10-2007, 04:57 PM

Regarding the Balk, I think the balk rule as written is a serious blemish in a near-perfect game, and I would totally overhaul it. It is needless to have runners advancing because an umpire has, correctly or otherwise, judged that a pitcher moved his finger before his toe, or if a nod of the head is 'naturally associated with the pitch". Here is what I would replace it with:

It is a Balk if the pitcher
a) cocks his arm as if to throw to any base or the plate, and does not complete the throw
b) throws to any base or the plate without facing and stepping toward that base.. Penalty: The ball; is dead and the umpire calls Ball. The runner occupying the base that the improper throw is directed to is advanced to the next base, as are any runners forced to advance.

It is an Illegal Pitch if the pitcher
a) steps on the rubber without the ball in his possession
b) begins or ends his motion to pitch to the plate without one foot on the rubber
c) throws what is obviously a 'quick pitch' when the batter is not ready.
Penalty: A Ball is called.
--------------------
I quite honestly don't see why anything more restrictive against the pitcher is really necessary. If a runner breaks from first too soon, I can't see where the integrity of the game is seriously harmed or that a runner is unfairly deceived if the pitcher throws to an "unoccupied" second base. Can you?
In fact, in one sense, my rule is even more restrictive. No more fake throws to second. Anybody else have an opinion on this?

12-03-2006, 05:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
MuffinMcFluffin Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 584	"First-and-Third" plays This is sort of a more amateur-related topic, but I was wondering if anybody knew of some pretty okay 1st and 3rd plays in baseball/softball. I know of the following that we've been taught: - Straight throwdown to second. - Throw to third - Throw back to pitcher - Fake-throw - Throwdown to second, but 2nd baseman cuts the ball off Are there any other decent ones that people know of that they could help me organize? If so, thanks. __________________

03-04-2007, 12:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
MuffinMcFluffin Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 584	Bump Anything? __________________

03-29-2007, 02:14 AM	#8 (permalink)
ScoutingBook Rookie Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 8	The hardest play for a 1B to learn, I think, is the pickoff that causes the runner to break for second (instead of coming back to first). The 1B needs to step INTO the throw from the pitcher so that he has an angle from which to throw to second. (Otherwise he's blocked by the runner.) Learning to do that (move forward quickly if the runner breaks) is hard. __________________ ScoutingBook.com: Top Baseball Prospects, Closer Watch Updates, Draft Help, and more.

05-10-2007, 04:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,701	Regarding the Balk, I think the balk rule as written is a serious blemish in a near-perfect game, and I would totally overhaul it. It is needless to have runners advancing because an umpire has, correctly or otherwise, judged that a pitcher moved his finger before his toe, or if a nod of the head is 'naturally associated with the pitch". Here is what I would replace it with: It is a Balk if the pitcher a) cocks his arm as if to throw to any base or the plate, and does not complete the throw b) throws to any base or the plate without facing and stepping toward that base.. Penalty: The ball; is dead and the umpire calls Ball. The runner occupying the base that the improper throw is directed to is advanced to the next base, as are any runners forced to advance. It is an Illegal Pitch if the pitcher a) steps on the rubber without the ball in his possession b) begins or ends his motion to pitch to the plate without one foot on the rubber c) throws what is obviously a 'quick pitch' when the batter is not ready. Penalty: A Ball is called. -------------------- I quite honestly don't see why anything more restrictive against the pitcher is really necessary. If a runner breaks from first too soon, I can't see where the integrity of the game is seriously harmed or that a runner is unfairly deceived if the pitcher throws to an "unoccupied" second base. Can you? In fact, in one sense, my rule is even more restrictive. No more fake throws to second. Anybody else have an opinion on this? Last edited by jtur88; 05-10-2007 at 05:03 PM.

03-04-2007, 04:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	The only one I can think of is the "hidden ball" play, in which time is called for a conference on the mound. Typically, the catcher, pitcher, 1B and 3B confab around the mound to discuss strategy; but when the conference breaks up, someone other than the pitcher has the ball. If a runner and the base coaches are napping, someone takes a lead and is tagged out by the IF "hiding" the ball. Before you dismiss it as ridiculous, it's a old play, which occasionally works, even at the MLB level, up to today.

03-06-2007, 12:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Rice4HoF Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 60	I saw that one tried in my son's youth league last year. Against our team. The umpire called the runner on 3rd base out. I called "time" and asked the base ump where the pitcher was standing when the play was made. He said "on the mound". I reminded him that if a pitcher is on the mound, pretending to be ready to pitch and doesn't have the ball, it's a balk. He conferred with the home plate ump, and they reversed the call and called a balk, awarding the runner home plate. We won the game by 1 run

03-06-2007, 12:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
Rice4HoF Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 60	To answer the original question, another one my son's team uses which is a variation on throwing to 2nd base, is throwing to the shortstop. That can work a bit better, as the runner on 3rd will often take a few steps, realize it's a trick play and try getting back, but the shortstop is closer to 3rd and more likely to get him there, than the second baseman would.

03-06-2007, 12:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	RE: the balk [on the hidden ball]: "However, the hidden ball trick is illegal (and a balk is called) if the pitcher is standing on or astride the pitcher's rubber. Third baseman Matt Williams used a different technique; on more than one occasion, he asked the runner to step off the bag so that Williams could sweep the dirt off of it, then tagged out the runner when the runner complied. There have been fewer than 300 successful executions of the hidden ball trick in Major League Baseball." Just to clarify, the balk is called only IF the pitcher is standing ON or ASTRIDE the pitcher's RUBBER. The mound does NOT qualify as balk territory.

04-25-2007, 06:35 AM	#9 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,701	If Time has been called for the conference on the mound, the pitcher can step wherever he wants, with or without the ball, until the umpire calls Play. Then, the ball is in Play only after the pitcher steps on the rubber holding the ball. If the infielder has the ball and the umpire calls Play and the pitcher steps on the ribber, it is not necessarily a Balk---this becomes a knotty question. I'm not sure a balk can be called when the ball has not yet been put in Play. However, if a runner is then tagged with the ball, it is meaningless, since the ball is not yet in Play. In other words, the runner cannot be tagged out with a ball that is not In Play, and the ball is not In Play until the pitcher puts it In Play by stepping on the rubber with the ball in his hand.

05-07-2007, 08:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
LongtimeBravesFan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,158	If you throw to an unoccupied base, it is a balk. Rule 8.05d link

05-10-2007, 04:36 PM	#11 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,701	[[[ 5.11 After the ball is dead, play shall be resumed when the pitcher takes his place on the pitcher's plate with a new ball or the same ball in his possession and the plate umpire calls "Play." The plate umpire shall call "Play" as soon as the pitcher takes his place on his plate with the ball in his possession. ]]] ------------- So, if time has been called, a pitcher cannot be charged with a Balk for any infraction that occurs priot to the pitcher stepping on the rubber with a ball in his possession AND the umpire calling 'Play' when he deems that all players on the fierld are ready to resume play. Nor can any runner be put out, nor advance any base, prior to such occurrence. Having said that, it seems that Time is not necessarilty called just because the defense has a conference. Presumably, defensive players can meet for a conference on the field WITHOUT calling time, and I don't think the umpire is obliged to call time in such a case, on his own discretion. So, a runner can run from one base to the next during a conference on the mound, IF the defense has not bothered to ask for Time before conferring. And any player holding the ball can throw it to any base in such an event, provided it is not the pitcher with his foot on the rubber who is doing so. Calling Time is an important protocal in baseball. Calling Time freezes the game, and then requires everyone to resume a last legal position to restart. That is, all runners at their correct bases, defense in proper alignment, batter ready to bat, and pitcher on the rubber with a ball. Nothing can be done by either team to gain an advantage while Time is called.