Money talks???...or does nobody want to come here?...

RotatorCuff · December 29th, 2006, 07:12 PM

With Zito going to SF I just started thinking about the prospect of future free agents having little desire to come to the Emerald City.

I honestly see Ichiro leaving after next season which will no doubt be the Mariners fourth consecutive last place finish.

So I ask the question. Who is going to want to sign with the Mariners? The team has no direction.

The lure of a nice park is not going to get it done. It's going to take boatloads of cash to get players to come here and even then we might get spurned.

I hate to sound like a negative nanny but I just see Mariners baseball completely sucking for the next 10 years.

That's what happens when you don't take a step back and try to rebuild the proper way.

All the Mariners have shown over the past 3 seasons is how NOT to run a baseball team.

Goose · December 29th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Completely sucking for the next 10 years?

Come on now. Let's not turn this place into Seattle Hardball where every post talks about the sky falling. That gets really annoying really quick.

And in Zito's case, money does talk. The Mariners offered him 6/96 and the Giants offered a year and $30 million more. He said that he wanted to go to a place where he could win multiple championships. And when I think of that, I certainly don't think of the nursing home that is the Giants. He had a chance to go to the Mets or maybe even the Yankees. Instead he choose the money.

Wiggen · December 29th, 2006, 11:13 PM

If the Mariners want quality free agents - or in fact any free agent - then they probably have to pay more than most other teams. They'd certainly have to pay more than a contending team.

Which is why you won't see any future big name free agents signing here. We shot our wad on Sexson and Beltre - both of whom we signed because we were willing to pay more than anybody else. That won't happen again.

Goose · December 29th, 2006, 11:27 PM

The geography of Seattle is certainly something that comes into play and I think is a big factor in weather or not FA's want to come here.

Of course they'd have to pay more than other teams. That's the whole nature behind FA nowadays. And if people like Barry Zito have proven anything it's that contention is irrelavent for a good portion of free agents. The highest bidder wins, regardless. Look at Gil Meche for god sakes, he sure in the hell didn't go to KC because he wanted to win, thats for damn sure. He went because they offered the most and they offered him Ace status. Plain and simple.

To say that we won't see any more big name FA's sign here is pretty preposterous IMO.

RotatorCuff · December 30th, 2006, 12:35 AM

[quote=Goose;18585]Completely sucking for the next 10 years?Come on now. Let's not turn this place into Seattle Hardball where every post talks about the sky falling. That gets really annoying really quick.

I don't think you realize just what kind of sad shape this organization is in. I honestly believe that this franchise is going to take years to recover from the current mess they are in.

10 years??? Maybe not, but I think we'll be buried at the bottom of the West for at least the next five years.

That's right. I'm calling my shot. 8 straight last place finishes.

Jim Potable · December 30th, 2006, 01:10 AM

I've read through the posts here, and just for clarification: the reason the Mariners will finish in last place for the next five to ten years is because no free agents will want to come here unless we "over-pay"?

Does that sum it up?

Goose · December 30th, 2006, 01:12 AM

And I think your emotional response to this offseason is seriously impairing your judgment.

Your talking like we're back in the 80's. And that's just crazy.

Those teams would absolutely kill for a Felix Hernandez, or a Jose Lopez, or a Betancourt, or a JJ Putz, or an Adrian Beltre, or a Kenji Johjima, or an Ichiro on the big league club. They would also kill to have an Adam Jones, or a Jeff Clement, or a Brandon Morrow, or a Tony Butler, or a Chris Tillman, or a Carlos Trifunel in the farm system.

From 1977 to 1991 when the team finally broke the .500 barrier the best team to ever come out of this franchise was the 87 team who went 78-84. And we've got alot more talent than that team did.

Wiggen · December 30th, 2006, 09:33 AM

Wasn't it Baseball America that rated the Mariner farm system the second worst in all of baseball, behind only the Washington Nationals?

OK so we have a terrible minor league system, an unwillingness to sign quality free agents, a GM that makes terrible trades, and a field manager that is mediocrity personified.

How exactly is it that we're going to rise to the top again? I forget.

RotatorCuff · December 30th, 2006, 10:23 AM

You are correct Wiggen. The situation is bad. Goose is just trying to find some positvives.

There are some, but the negatives far outweigh the positives and for some reason he is blind to that.

Sorry Goose but I think it is YOUR judgement that has been impaired.

Timberwolf · December 30th, 2006, 12:54 PM

I think the SoDo DoDos have kicked the 2007 season away with an unbelievably terrible offseason. I think any forecast of a 5 or 10 year drought is pretty excessive. We have the young nucleus of a real team. We appear to have stopped wasting our draft picks like we did in the Gillick era.

Many free agents consider Seattle to be a remote and undesirable place. Guys from Asia and the northwest are the only ones who show a preference to be here. We should be a doing a better job in Asia than we are.

Lamda · January 2nd, 2007, 02:53 AM

well, we are in a bad location media wise and we have been last the past few years. Add in the fact tha players know the situation behind the FO and the fact that Hargrove is a marginal manager at best and why would a FA want to come here? We don't have to overpay for all FA's but lets take a look at that for a second. It's not that Seattle has to overpay - but as you originally pointed out in the post - Money talks, period. There is barely a choice anymore for FA's - unless they are lower level FA's they take the highest bid 99% of the time. Any club has to outbid any other to get a FA.
5-10 years is probably excessive - in a few years we'll be rid of Beltre/Sexson/Washburn's contracts and can hopefully duplicate those contracts on players that will produce better. That's 3 years away so if our young talent continues to develop and then we can sign good players - we'll have a chance after that. Here's look forward to our club in 2010

The Iceman Cometh · January 2nd, 2007, 01:04 PM

The M's can win THIS year if things break right. It might not be particularly likely, but this team finishing in last this year should not be a foregone conclusion IMO.

Personally, I disagree with the notion that our minor league system is "terrible" and that we have an "unwillingness to sign quality free agents", but I don't think we should be accusing each other of being "blind" just yet.

To me, new quality leadership would do a lot for this franchise.

Lamda · January 2nd, 2007, 03:07 PM

nice optimism Iceman - but as you say - an incredible list of things has to happen for the M's to win the West this year. Felix has to get about 20 wins and be the dominate guy we saw for a few months those 2 years ago. Wash has to win 15+ as does Bautista - Horam being close to that and keeping the club in games he doesn't win is another thing. Guillen/Vidro have to stay off the DL and have the career type years they have had before. Beltre/Sexson need to both hit well over 30 hr's and drive in 120 rbi's a piece. All of these need to happen for us to have a chance to win the West. I believe some of those can/will happen but not all of them. I think our letdown will be the pitching staff and Vidro - I like the Guillen signing and think he'll do well but that's about it. I think the Guillen option year is so bad that even if he does do well for us this year - we don't keep him next year.
We'll keep the faith but I think most of us agree - a failed season this year while hard to watch, may actually end up doing more good for the organization than the domino's falling into place for an 85 win season or something like that.

The Iceman Cometh · January 2nd, 2007, 04:12 PM

Actually believing that the M's will win the West this year would be optimistic. I'm simply pointing out it's possible. With all the doom and gloom floating around, I think sometimes people tend to forget how quickly things can change in Baseball.

RotatorCuff · January 2nd, 2007, 05:19 PM

Sorry Iceman but I believe the M's chances of winning the West are 0%.

The way I see it their chances of finishing last is about 100%.

So if you like the 100% number go with that prediction.

December 29th, 2006, 07:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
RotatorCuff Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 257	Money talks???...or does nobody want to come here?... With Zito going to SF I just started thinking about the prospect of future free agents having little desire to come to the Emerald City. I honestly see Ichiro leaving after next season which will no doubt be the Mariners fourth consecutive last place finish. So I ask the question. Who is going to want to sign with the Mariners? The team has no direction. The lure of a nice park is not going to get it done. It's going to take boatloads of cash to get players to come here and even then we might get spurned. I hate to sound like a negative nanny but I just see Mariners baseball completely sucking for the next 10 years. That's what happens when you don't take a step back and try to rebuild the proper way. All the Mariners have shown over the past 3 seasons is how NOT to run a baseball team. Last edited by RotatorCuff; December 29th, 2006 at 07:33 PM.

December 29th, 2006, 09:51 PM	#2 (permalink)
Goose Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aberdeen,Wa Posts: 1,190	Completely sucking for the next 10 years? Come on now. Let's not turn this place into Seattle Hardball where every post talks about the sky falling. That gets really annoying really quick. And in Zito's case, money does talk. The Mariners offered him 6/96 and the Giants offered a year and $30 million more. He said that he wanted to go to a place where he could win multiple championships. And when I think of that, I certainly don't think of the nursing home that is the Giants. He had a chance to go to the Mets or maybe even the Yankees. Instead he choose the money. __________________ http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/843...idensigfd9.png

December 29th, 2006, 11:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Goose Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aberdeen,Wa Posts: 1,190	The geography of Seattle is certainly something that comes into play and I think is a big factor in weather or not FA's want to come here. Of course they'd have to pay more than other teams. That's the whole nature behind FA nowadays. And if people like Barry Zito have proven anything it's that contention is irrelavent for a good portion of free agents. The highest bidder wins, regardless. Look at Gil Meche for god sakes, he sure in the hell didn't go to KC because he wanted to win, thats for damn sure. He went because they offered the most and they offered him Ace status. Plain and simple. To say that we won't see any more big name FA's sign here is pretty preposterous IMO. __________________ http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/843...idensigfd9.png

December 30th, 2006, 01:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Goose Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aberdeen,Wa Posts: 1,190	And I think your emotional response to this offseason is seriously impairing your judgment. Your talking like we're back in the 80's. And that's just crazy. Those teams would absolutely kill for a Felix Hernandez, or a Jose Lopez, or a Betancourt, or a JJ Putz, or an Adrian Beltre, or a Kenji Johjima, or an Ichiro on the big league club. They would also kill to have an Adam Jones, or a Jeff Clement, or a Brandon Morrow, or a Tony Butler, or a Chris Tillman, or a Carlos Trifunel in the farm system. From 1977 to 1991 when the team finally broke the .500 barrier the best team to ever come out of this franchise was the 87 team who went 78-84. And we've got alot more talent than that team did. __________________ http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/843...idensigfd9.png

December 30th, 2006, 10:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
RotatorCuff Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 257	You are correct Wiggen. The situation is bad. Goose is just trying to find some positvives. There are some, but the negatives far outweigh the positives and for some reason he is blind to that. Sorry Goose but I think it is YOUR judgement that has been impaired. Last edited by RotatorCuff; December 30th, 2006 at 11:20 AM.

December 29th, 2006, 11:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
Wiggen Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,318	If the Mariners want quality free agents - or in fact any free agent - then they probably have to pay more than most other teams. They'd certainly have to pay more than a contending team. Which is why you won't see any future big name free agents signing here. We shot our wad on Sexson and Beltre - both of whom we signed because we were willing to pay more than anybody else. That won't happen again.

December 30th, 2006, 12:35 AM	#5 (permalink)
RotatorCuff Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 257	[quote=Goose;18585]Completely sucking for the next 10 years?Come on now. Let's not turn this place into Seattle Hardball where every post talks about the sky falling. That gets really annoying really quick. I don't think you realize just what kind of sad shape this organization is in. I honestly believe that this franchise is going to take years to recover from the current mess they are in. 10 years??? Maybe not, but I think we'll be buried at the bottom of the West for at least the next five years. That's right. I'm calling my shot. 8 straight last place finishes.

December 30th, 2006, 01:10 AM	#6 (permalink)
Jim Potable Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aichi, Japan Posts: 205	I've read through the posts here, and just for clarification: the reason the Mariners will finish in last place for the next five to ten years is because no free agents will want to come here unless we "over-pay"? Does that sum it up?

December 30th, 2006, 09:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
Wiggen Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,318	Wasn't it Baseball America that rated the Mariner farm system the second worst in all of baseball, behind only the Washington Nationals? OK so we have a terrible minor league system, an unwillingness to sign quality free agents, a GM that makes terrible trades, and a field manager that is mediocrity personified. How exactly is it that we're going to rise to the top again? I forget.

December 30th, 2006, 12:54 PM	#10 (permalink)
Timberwolf Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 1,865	I think the SoDo DoDos have kicked the 2007 season away with an unbelievably terrible offseason. I think any forecast of a 5 or 10 year drought is pretty excessive. We have the young nucleus of a real team. We appear to have stopped wasting our draft picks like we did in the Gillick era. Many free agents consider Seattle to be a remote and undesirable place. Guys from Asia and the northwest are the only ones who show a preference to be here. We should be a doing a better job in Asia than we are.

January 2nd, 2007, 02:53 AM	#11 (permalink)
Lamda Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redmond Posts: 42	well, we are in a bad location media wise and we have been last the past few years. Add in the fact tha players know the situation behind the FO and the fact that Hargrove is a marginal manager at best and why would a FA want to come here? We don't have to overpay for all FA's but lets take a look at that for a second. It's not that Seattle has to overpay - but as you originally pointed out in the post - Money talks, period. There is barely a choice anymore for FA's - unless they are lower level FA's they take the highest bid 99% of the time. Any club has to outbid any other to get a FA. 5-10 years is probably excessive - in a few years we'll be rid of Beltre/Sexson/Washburn's contracts and can hopefully duplicate those contracts on players that will produce better. That's 3 years away so if our young talent continues to develop and then we can sign good players - we'll have a chance after that. Here's look forward to our club in 2010

January 2nd, 2007, 01:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
The Iceman Cometh Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 176	The M's can win THIS year if things break right. It might not be particularly likely, but this team finishing in last this year should not be a foregone conclusion IMO. Personally, I disagree with the notion that our minor league system is "terrible" and that we have an "unwillingness to sign quality free agents", but I don't think we should be accusing each other of being "blind" just yet. To me, new quality leadership would do a lot for this franchise.

January 2nd, 2007, 03:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
Lamda Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redmond Posts: 42	nice optimism Iceman - but as you say - an incredible list of things has to happen for the M's to win the West this year. Felix has to get about 20 wins and be the dominate guy we saw for a few months those 2 years ago. Wash has to win 15+ as does Bautista - Horam being close to that and keeping the club in games he doesn't win is another thing. Guillen/Vidro have to stay off the DL and have the career type years they have had before. Beltre/Sexson need to both hit well over 30 hr's and drive in 120 rbi's a piece. All of these need to happen for us to have a chance to win the West. I believe some of those can/will happen but not all of them. I think our letdown will be the pitching staff and Vidro - I like the Guillen signing and think he'll do well but that's about it. I think the Guillen option year is so bad that even if he does do well for us this year - we don't keep him next year. We'll keep the faith but I think most of us agree - a failed season this year while hard to watch, may actually end up doing more good for the organization than the domino's falling into place for an 85 win season or something like that.

January 2nd, 2007, 04:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
The Iceman Cometh Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 176	Actually believing that the M's will win the West this year would be optimistic. I'm simply pointing out it's possible. With all the doom and gloom floating around, I think sometimes people tend to forget how quickly things can change in Baseball.

January 2nd, 2007, 05:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
RotatorCuff Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 257	Sorry Iceman but I believe the M's chances of winning the West are 0%. The way I see it their chances of finishing last is about 100%. So if you like the 100% number go with that prediction.