Steroids & the '89 team

[Nat]

Something that's been bothering me this offseason, and since the steroid scandel blew up in general, is the conclusion come to by many (including some A's fans) that the 1988-1992 teams were built on steroids and the '89 trophy is now tarnished thanks to Canseco's (& McGwire's non-)revelation.
The HR muscle was only one aspect of the team's well-rounded game, and it could be better argued they would have been less fortunate without Stew, Eck or Rickey than the Bash Bros.
Anyway, I just needed to vent

[RobDogBucky]

Nat;

Yo, hello, read you on some other boards, so I know you are a real A's fan. Serious discussion indeed. One question, not to be snarky or anything, just more of the devil's advocate than anything. How do you know that Eck, Stew and Rickey, etc. were not also juicing? In fact, why not include folks like Will Clark, Chili Davis and Jack Clark in the supposition? We have seen that pitchers and little guys were/are doing it too. See no evil, hear no evil, say no evil. I think there is a thin white-chalk line and a code of silence controlling within the game itself.

We have seen so much come out of these guys, (both living and dead, both willing and unwilling) and I have heard from my own sources, both in the game and out, that everybody was/is doing some kind of juicing. And they always look at me like I should assume it, what am I, some naive kid? I can think of three athletes where there is lots of incriminating evidence that they were juicing in the '70s, but it was long before the awareness of it. And they were Olympic athletes, and so long ago, that it does not seem logical that more of the guys would not do it over these many years. Especially with development of all the maskers to same. Especially with this code of silence within the game itself. I mean what does the account of greenies in bowls and in coffee in all the clubhouses say to you?

I had a mini-debate with a player, who initially used all the defenses to justify it when I brought it up;
-the pressure to excel is so great, everyone else is juicing so I have to just to keep up,
-the owners and fans want more offense, so what can be wrong with it (?),
-I only have a few years to make my mark in the game, so why not try it (?),
-there are so many games, 162, that it is hard to keep up with the grind, -and (my personal favorite) Babe Ruth used supplements.

When I responded that there are lots and lots of other professionals that don't use any enhancements to do their jobs and it does not seem that they needed anything to get up to do their jobs, year in and year out, facing danger, boredom and fatigue, such as cops, firemen, doctors, plumbers, linemen, construction workers building buildings with deadlines, I was greeted with stone silence.

How can you be sure those others weren't juicing too? Have you ever discussed the issue with someone in the game right now? It is a real eye-opener, especially when they haul out all the talking points in defense.

Just sayin'

My name is RobDogBucky and I am an A's boardaholic.

Later,
RDB

[RobDogBucky]

And this just in:

Regarding George Mitchell's attempts to get baseball players to cooperate (excuse me while I choke on my drink), the following two quotes pretty much sums it up, first from Mitchell and whether folks like Bonds will cooperate:
"Nothing is more important than the integrity of the game of baseball," he wrote."

And from Sheffield's attorney on whether he would cooperate:
"There are things more important than baseball -- like the integrity of collective bargaining agreements," she said.

Okay, so how much progress can be made when the two sides are this far apart? Thoughts anyone?

Later,
RDB

[Nat]

Originally Posted by RobDogBucky

Nat

How can you be sure those others weren't juicing too? Have you ever discussed the issue with someone in the game right now? It is a real eye-opener, especially when they haul out all the talking points in defense.

Just sayin'

My name is RobDogBucky and I am an A's boardaholic.

Later,
RDB

Hi Rob....I agree, we can't be sure any of the guys you mentioned werem't juicing. The best evidence we would have is their injury history, and even then that is circumstantial. You point only furthers mine tho, Canseco & McGwire (and Bonds too) shouldn't be scapegoated when they were merely a symptom of the overall problem of willful ignorance on the part of Major League Baseball...from the top down.
Anyway, glad I could start some conversation on this board, it feels like home already.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by RobDogBucky

And this just in:

Regarding George Mitchell's attempts to get baseball players to cooperate (excuse me while I choke on my drink), the following two quotes pretty much sums it up, first from Mitchell and whether folks like Bonds will cooperate:
"Nothing is more important than the integrity of the game of baseball," he wrote."

And from Sheffield's attorney on whether he would cooperate:
"There are things more important than baseball -- like the integrity of collective bargaining agreements," she said.

Okay, so how much progress can be made when the two sides are this far apart? Thoughts anyone?

Later,
RDB

Well, I can understand both sides' point...MLB (the corporation) will look out for its interests, and the players union (labor force) will look out for theirs. But as is the case with most negotiations where both facets of the company have mutual responsibility & need for each other, something will be resolved before any more blood shed.

[RobDogBucky]

Nat;

On this I have an emotional reaction. It's too bad too, because I would like to be able to just shine it all on and laugh it off and say "they all do it." I think most of the fans and players actually do. Maybe it would be best to come fully clean, tell all and embrace the whole situation as Canseco does in his advocating managed steroid use.

That said, it is never a positive thing for a whole industry to be so morally compromised. I am talking about the other thing too, the leapers, zips, bennies, whatever you call them. This is an epidemic with the apparent blessing of the owners. Um, they are a controlled substance too, and lots of brothers are in stir for simple possession.

The only fly in the ointment is what the fans would come to think of it and then possibly react badly. That these are just whores doing anything necessary to exceed, to win, to be the best, to set records. Using illegal PEDs. Breaking the law with the blessing of the oligarchy/owner/TV networks. I guess to them it is just a marketing problem to be overcome.

I have family in the game and it bothers me to think they might be pressured to do it and I know they have done it in the past and will be tempted to do it again.

My name is RobDogBucky and I am an A's boardaholic


Later,
RDB

[Big J]

Okay, here's the deal, and I'll be brief.

The whole league was on roids. The whole league.

Canseco and McGwire?

Kevin Mitchell and Matt Williams.

The whole league. And they were in '88 and '87 and in '90 and '98 and 2007 they will be again.

Our title isn't tarnished one bit. The A's were the best in MLB in 1989. Period.

[RobDogBucky]

BigJ;

Preaching to the choir here, I agree 100%


Later,
RDB

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Big J

Okay, here's the deal, and I'll be brief.

The whole league was on roids. The whole league.

Canseco and McGwire?

Kevin Mitchell and Matt Williams.

The whole league. And they were in '88 and '87 and in '90 and '98 and 2007 they will be again.

Our title isn't tarnished one bit. The A's were the best in MLB in 1989. Period.