Was Gruden worth it?

John F · November 21st, 2006, 01:28 PM

To continue along this "looking back" trend that Dada started with the Rivers/Manning trade, I want honest opinions from members about the Jon Gruden deal that sent him from the Oakland Raiders to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 2002.

The immediate response to the deal was that the Bucs won the trade short term and the Raiders won long term because of what they netted in return for Gruden (draft picks and cash). How it looks right now is that the only winner was the Bucs short term -- as Gruden seems to have hurt the Buccaneers long term. The Raiders have fallen on hard times too. The Super Bowl victory by the Bucs is what makes Tampa Bay the winner of this deal -- but I for one would be happy if the Buccaneers were still helmed by Tony Dungy (and Rich McKay as GM) instead of having a Super Bowl ring from 2002/03 with Jon Gruden. The entire franchise has gone in the wrong direction thanks to Gruden and his minion, Bruce Allen... But that's just my opinion.

Gbomb · November 21st, 2006, 03:18 PM

I think the Bucs look alright in the deal since they did get the ring. The raiders obviously haven't done jack-squat. Perhaps the real winner of the deal will be the Colts who ended up with Dungy, that is if the Colts can find a way to win a championship over the next couple of years.

John F · November 21st, 2006, 04:17 PM

Hell, I think the championship almost comes out moot if your organization is one of the most dominant in pro sports under your leadership.

The Bucs had a long losing history that was being forgotten under Dungy. The ring is the ultimate thing, I realize, but until the team reached .500 in it's general all time record, I would be happy with just fielding good teams over and over again -- though I'd get frustrated without winning in the playoffs.

But that's just me.

Sportycliche · November 21st, 2006, 08:26 PM

Gruden/Allen is slowly doing the same thing he did in Oakland in Tampa now as well....lots of vets and hope the team plays well.

when it crashes, its going to crash hard....

GhostofVDC · November 21st, 2006, 10:34 PM

Meh, teams tend to arc in the NFL. Who's to say that without Gruden, they still don't arc and fall, but don't win a super bowl. It was an old team that Gruden took over without much in the way of offensive tallent. He took over an old team that didn't have any high round picks due to compensation for him coming over, but in the past two years when they've had first round picks, they've drafted two rookie of the year candidates in Clayton and Williams.

They lost their QB to a ruptured spleen. Not many teams look good after that.

John F · November 22nd, 2006, 09:11 AM

They didn't look too good BEFORE that, Ghost.

Clayton and Williams were ROY worthy, that is true -- but Clayton has mostly disappeared from the Buccaneer offense and Williams can't get the touches now. You'd have thought that Jon Gruden would dump the load on Cadilliac and you know what? Instead he's dumped the load on a rookie QB that he's fixated on. Throw-throw-throw with a rookie QB (and we ain't talking a Manning, Rivers, Brees type guy to begin with). THAT is poor play calling as well as poor coaching.

And yeah, the Bucs might have arced without the Ring but remember this: The team nucleus went beyond what was on the field.

BucsFan4Ever · November 22nd, 2006, 02:46 PM

the simple answer is yes. the trade almost directly resulted in a super bowl for the franchise. tony dungy simply couldn't take the team over the final hurdle, just as he has failed to do with the Colts.

bruce allen is a better GM than rich mckay in my opinion. consider mckay trading up for kenyatta walker. consider mckay giving chidi ahanatou the franchise tag. he also overpaid when renewing contracts, which resulted in the team being over $25million over the cap when Bruce Allen took over.

John F · November 22nd, 2006, 04:12 PM

Yes, that is the "Simple" answer.

I'm trying to understand how Tony Dungy pushing for Kenyatta Walker and knowing his OL needed to be upgraded is all Rich McKay's fault? I'm trying to understand why Charlie Garner and other Bruce Allen botch ups are null and void?

The simple answer is "He got the ring, it's worth it!" The complex answer is no -- and bringing along a crony to run your new team only hurts when the owners have given you carte blanche over the franchise.

LaxD · November 22nd, 2006, 04:14 PM

They got a ring, if he can't make them do good again, fire him. That's it. He got that last push to take them all the way that Dungy couldn't do. But it was Dungy's team that Gruden took control of. I say fire him in a year or 2.

brewinsfan · November 23rd, 2006, 12:49 PM

how many years has he been the HC now? four? he has failed to meet expectations since the SB, i would have to let him go.

Hellwig · November 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM

Bucs I would say since they got the ring. Real winner is Jon Gruden himself. He went to the slightly better older team and got a ring for it. Now the Bucs are pretty young and he's struggling. Let him go to Dallas or where ever someone would hire him; give him and the franchise a new start.

November 21st, 2006, 01:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
John F Administrator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida Posts: 2,510	Was Gruden worth it? To continue along this "looking back" trend that Dada started with the Rivers/Manning trade, I want honest opinions from members about the Jon Gruden deal that sent him from the Oakland Raiders to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 2002. The immediate response to the deal was that the Bucs won the trade short term and the Raiders won long term because of what they netted in return for Gruden (draft picks and cash). How it looks right now is that the only winner was the Bucs short term -- as Gruden seems to have hurt the Buccaneers long term. The Raiders have fallen on hard times too. The Super Bowl victory by the Bucs is what makes Tampa Bay the winner of this deal -- but I for one would be happy if the Buccaneers were still helmed by Tony Dungy (and Rich McKay as GM) instead of having a Super Bowl ring from 2002/03 with Jon Gruden. The entire franchise has gone in the wrong direction thanks to Gruden and his minion, Bruce Allen... But that's just my opinion. __________________ The more they over think the plumbing, the easier to stop up the drain.

November 21st, 2006, 04:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
John F Administrator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida Posts: 2,510	Hell, I think the championship almost comes out moot if your organization is one of the most dominant in pro sports under your leadership. The Bucs had a long losing history that was being forgotten under Dungy. The ring is the ultimate thing, I realize, but until the team reached .500 in it's general all time record, I would be happy with just fielding good teams over and over again -- though I'd get frustrated without winning in the playoffs. But that's just me. __________________ The more they over think the plumbing, the easier to stop up the drain.

November 22nd, 2006, 09:11 AM	#6 (permalink)
John F Administrator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida Posts: 2,510	They didn't look too good BEFORE that, Ghost. Clayton and Williams were ROY worthy, that is true -- but Clayton has mostly disappeared from the Buccaneer offense and Williams can't get the touches now. You'd have thought that Jon Gruden would dump the load on Cadilliac and you know what? Instead he's dumped the load on a rookie QB that he's fixated on. Throw-throw-throw with a rookie QB (and we ain't talking a Manning, Rivers, Brees type guy to begin with). THAT is poor play calling as well as poor coaching. And yeah, the Bucs might have arced without the Ring but remember this: The team nucleus went beyond what was on the field. __________________ The more they over think the plumbing, the easier to stop up the drain.

November 22nd, 2006, 04:12 PM	#8 (permalink)
John F Administrator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, Florida Posts: 2,510	Yes, that is the "Simple" answer. I'm trying to understand how Tony Dungy pushing for Kenyatta Walker and knowing his OL needed to be upgraded is all Rich McKay's fault? I'm trying to understand why Charlie Garner and other Bruce Allen botch ups are null and void? The simple answer is "He got the ring, it's worth it!" The complex answer is no -- and bringing along a crony to run your new team only hurts when the owners have given you carte blanche over the franchise. __________________ The more they over think the plumbing, the easier to stop up the drain.

November 23rd, 2006, 12:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
brewinsfan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Regina Posts: 45	how many years has he been the HC now? four? he has failed to meet expectations since the SB, i would have to let him go. __________________ ------------------------------- I cheer for the Bruins, Roughriders, and Browns, yup that's right i'm a satomasicust.

November 21st, 2006, 03:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Gbomb Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: California Posts: 67	I think the Bucs look alright in the deal since they did get the ring. The raiders obviously haven't done jack-squat. Perhaps the real winner of the deal will be the Colts who ended up with Dungy, that is if the Colts can find a way to win a championship over the next couple of years.

November 21st, 2006, 08:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Sportycliche Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Carrollton, GA Posts: 143	Gruden/Allen is slowly doing the same thing he did in Oakland in Tampa now as well....lots of vets and hope the team plays well. when it crashes, its going to crash hard....

November 21st, 2006, 10:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
GhostofVDC New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5	Meh, teams tend to arc in the NFL. Who's to say that without Gruden, they still don't arc and fall, but don't win a super bowl. It was an old team that Gruden took over without much in the way of offensive tallent. He took over an old team that didn't have any high round picks due to compensation for him coming over, but in the past two years when they've had first round picks, they've drafted two rookie of the year candidates in Clayton and Williams. They lost their QB to a ruptured spleen. Not many teams look good after that.

November 22nd, 2006, 02:46 PM	#7 (permalink)
BucsFan4Ever Rookie Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 9	the simple answer is yes. the trade almost directly resulted in a super bowl for the franchise. tony dungy simply couldn't take the team over the final hurdle, just as he has failed to do with the Colts. bruce allen is a better GM than rich mckay in my opinion. consider mckay trading up for kenyatta walker. consider mckay giving chidi ahanatou the franchise tag. he also overpaid when renewing contracts, which resulted in the team being over $25million over the cap when Bruce Allen took over.

November 22nd, 2006, 04:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
LaxD Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 875	They got a ring, if he can't make them do good again, fire him. That's it. He got that last push to take them all the way that Dungy couldn't do. But it was Dungy's team that Gruden took control of. I say fire him in a year or 2.

November 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
Hellwig Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,708	Bucs I would say since they got the ring. Real winner is Jon Gruden himself. He went to the slightly better older team and got a ring for it. Now the Bucs are pretty young and he's struggling. Let him go to Dallas or where ever someone would hire him; give him and the franchise a new start.