Asterisks, windbags & fools in high places

[kflo]

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

You have repeatedly stated, with absolute certainty, that Bonds cheated, cheated knowingly, and is UNWORTHY.

if you believe bonds cheated, it's hard to believe he cheated unknowingly, and it's hard to believe he's worthy of the record.

as for rose, he's banned from baseball. what more can they do to him?

and what is your speculation on rose? that he used performane enhancing drugs in his day?

[nanwynnfan]

A Generation of Doubt: Bulked-up Player & Broken Records

1980 & the 1980’s:

The decade of the 1980’s was the first in which MLB experienced a sustained attendance above the 40 million mark, managing to screw that
up, temporarily by a 50 day strike, called in 1981, when teams played
between 100 and 109 games and attendance dropped to 26.5 million.

The primary substance abuse problem in MLB is cocaine; and Peter
Ueberroth, 6th Commissioner in MLB history [1984-1988] seeks to
Institure a testing program; but it goes nowhere.

Ueberroth inherits a game in which there are 26 franchises; and 21 of
them are losing money. He averts an umpire strike and ends the “exiles”
previously imposed on two MLB greats, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays,
who have been exiled for working in Las Vegas.

By the end of Ueberroth’s term, all franchises are in the black or at break-
even financially; and he turns down another term, promoting Bart Giamatti
as his successor.

1980’s, HR/AB, by League:

There is a differential between the National League and American League in
this category because of the DH rule adopted in the AL but not in the AL.

NL % AL %

1980 1.88 2.41
1981 1.65 [strike season] 2.09
1982 1.96 2.67
1983 2.13 2.45
1984 1.94 2.54
1985 2.16 2.82
1986 2.32 2.96
1987 2.75 3.38
1988 1.95 2.47
1989 2.07 2.23
1990 2.31 2.34

NL % AL %

1991 2.19 Fay Vincent memo 2.52
1992 1.92 2.30
1993 2.52 NL expands to 14 2.68
1994 2.78 strike year; 3 Div. 3.21
1995 2.78 3.11
1996 2.89 3.47
1997 2.80 3.17
1998 2.89 NL expands to 16 3.19
*1999 3.25 3.37
*2000 3.39 3.42
*2001 3.35 3.21
2002 2.96 3.17
*2006 3.20 3.24

The seasons highlighted in bold print indicated HR/AB rates of sig-
nificant jumps to higher levels than before; and interested parties can
look up league HR leaders, their numbers and the surprises among the
top HR competitors in each league. I’m just pointing out eye-opening
leaps.

However, here are a few observations:

1. Expansion might be a catalyst for jumps;
2. Vincent’s memo had no effect, numbers suggest it was ignored;
3. Ironic that a League with NO DH closes on and even surpasses the
League with a DH in HR/AB, a condition that held in 2006 after
Everything hit the fan.

A look at the top 5 or so HR leaders in each league, from 1986 on
reveals an interesting cast or characters; and, given injury histories
and/or abruptly ended careers, suggests that just maybe some guys are
getting a complete pass undeservedly.

[1Perry]

A flash in the pan being forgotten has nothing to do with people not wanting Bonds to break Aarons record by cheating.

Few are getting a free pass. Palmerio likely blew his shot at the HOF. McGwire likely gets in but not for a couple years. A Brady Anderson is a nobody. While he bowed out before the controversy, the controversy likely really hurts the chances of the HOF of someone like Albert Belle.

[nanwynnfan]

Try a few more. I guess there are some names one dare not whisper.

And don't expect me to name them. I'm on the OTHER side of the argument; and can't presume guilt against a MLB LAW that never was.

[1Perry]

You made the accusation about "some" of these guys. And to me it's really irrelevant especially if nobody knows who you are talking about or why.

I also thought we had already cleared up the fact that basball law doesn't matter. Steroids were illegal.

[nanwynnfan]

"I also thought we had already cleared up the fact that basball law doesn't matter. Steroids were illegal."

Nope. You thought wrong. YOU cleared up that, as FACT, for yourself, which is fine. There are those of us who see the entire question as a bit more complex than that; and, rather than consider ourselves mentally challenged, all we have to to for relief is to look at the status quo, which has determined nothing and alleged much.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

"I also thought we had already cleared up the fact that basball law doesn't matter. Steroids were illegal."

Nope. You thought wrong. YOU cleared up that, as FACT, for yourself, which is fine. There are those of us who see the entire question as a bit more complex than that; and, rather than consider ourselves mentally challenged, all we have to to for relief is to look at the status quo, which has determined nothing and alleged much.

it was an unenforceable rule. it left players to the honor system. that they disregared such an honor system doesn't give them a free pass. they got away with it for a time, and now they're paying the price. to me, they're all under suspicion. sucks for them, but it's the envirnoment they helped create. bonds, and mcgwire, sosa and raffy get the brunt because of their career numbers, their place in history, and the obviousness of their crimes (raffy being the only officially failed test).

if you've got other names of comparable stature, nan, that's fine - i'd be interested in hearing the case. cal maybe? hey - throw them all in there. just don't try and tell me bonds deserves better.

i wish guys would just come clean. it'll be interesting to see how mcgwire handles his pariah status. his only real hope at redemption is a little honesty at this point.

greed all around. these players make up the players union that fought to keep this out of testing. these players maintained a don't ask don't tell environment that let the cheats flourish, and pressured the clean to join in.

lets just not insult our intelligence and act as if it's all alright, or that we just have no idea.

[nanwynnfan]

It's all moot now. #756 - GONE, at last: 10:52 PM, ET.

[unreal654]

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

It's all moot now. #756 - GONE, at last: 10:52 PM, ET.

I think EVERYONE was arguing under the assumption that Barry was going to break the record.

[DR3AMR]

Yahoo Sports:




Sports Illustrated:

[nanwynnfan]

"I think EVERYONE was arguing under the assumption that Barry was going to break the record."

THAT is so totally NOT the point.

There were [and are] those who resented the accomplishment, condemned the man who did it, had him guilty throughout, and now who bunch all ballplayers in a lump as greedy cheaters. Sounds like very sour grapes; and I won't waste any more time defending Bonds: He doesn't need it.

However, my hat gets tipped to the following:

-Hank Aaron, whose image being projected on a huge screen, delivered a gracious acknowledgement of the new record holder and invited future generations to strive to achieve their highest dreams;

-The Giant fans, who gave Bonds a rousing and long standing ovation, good, solid fans of a non-contending club, sharing their exhuberance over an amazing feat by an athlete of rare skills;

-Barry Bonds, who thanked the fans, at home AND on the road [a classy touch], his teammates, the Washington team for challenging him & giving him his shot; his family and, of, course, his Dad;

-The Giant team who swarmed Bonds like fans themselves, to a man;

-Mike Bacsik, for challenging Bonds and decidedly going after him, then in an interview being "cool" with being forever linked with Bonds [and delighted to have an autographed bat from Bonds, saying, "To Mike, God bless, Barry Bonds;"

-The Wahington team, like the San Diego team before, and the Giant team, standing on the dugout steps in anticipation of the record, like kids waiting at the Players' Exit for autographs & kind of reminding us that they are still the boys of summer;

To Dave O'Brian who just had to get in his "reservations" shot again; and to Commissioner Bud Selig, whose tepid congratulations are as bland as his leadership, they matter as little as their commentary.

[1Perry]

I think all can see where the sour grapes are coming from Who here lumped all players as greedy cheaters? You were the only one to allude that.

[kflo]

sour grapes is a b.s. term. calling it as we all know it to be. i have zero vested interest in this. i actually appreciate the level of talent bonds has - he's always been pretty much off the charts. he's just chemically enhanced. as are many others. which we KNOW to be true.

nan seems to be taking a 2 step defense here - 1 is we don't have a positive test from bonds (although we have leaked grand jury testimony about clear, and numerous accounts of others aware of bonds using ped's), and 2 is even if he did take it, it wasn't officially against the rules (even though it was).

bonds is by far the best of a large group who took ped's. and earlier, he was the best of a group that wasn't taking ped's as well. but this accomplishment is aided. that is all.

[nanwynnfan]

"I think all can see where the sour grapes are coming from Who here lumped all players as greedy cheaters? You were the only one to allude that."
1Perry is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

Me? Sour grapes? I'm delighted. It was YOUR expression that I paraphrased ... so own it.

[nanwynnfan]

RE:

"sour grapes is a b.s. term. calling it as we all know it to be. i have zero vested interest in this."

As WE ALL [that presumes unanimity] KNOW [presumes having documented, first-hand FACTS] it to BE [again, facts, documented and recorded]. I see more imagination than agreement and more speculation than fact. I'd also question that zero interest allusion; you're heated posts betray that as not quite certain, either.

Congratulation to BB!