Asterisks, windbags & fools in high places

[nanwynnfan]

"Nobody denies Barry could play. He showed it for years that he was better than average at the game."

Understatement at its best.

[DR3AMR]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Strange argument, dr3, that we should admire Bonds for being better at cheating than anyone else.

Technically, he didn't cheat.

[TylerDurden]

Forget the rules of baseball, he broke the law to give him an edge.

[nanwynnfan]

"The crude, rude Ted Williams and Gary Sheffields, also the product of personal pathologies.

"The commonality is altletic greatness, but the commonality ends there."

That crude, rude Ted Williams lost 5.5+ seasons to military service and did a lot of work on behalf of kids and children's causes. Yep, he had a temper and a thin skin; but he never disgraced himself or the game, in spite of a few ill-considered gestures to boo-birds for which he paid heavy out-of-pocket fines.

Much of the good work for kids was unpublicized; there was more to Ted than the Jimmy Fund.

As to pathologies, I'm not a licensed shrink so I'll withold further comment.

[DR3AMR]

Originally Posted by TylerDurden

Forget the rules of baseball, he broke the law to give him an edge.

And he should pay the price for that if he indeed do anything against the law. His body certainly will.

But, within the rules of the game, what he did was perfectly fine. It was something that was implicitly encouraged by Selig and the owners in a drive to restore the game's popularity after the strike and boost revenues.

And let's not look past the heart of the issue - if Bonds was a nice guy or if he was white or if he was both, then this wouldn't nearly be as big of a deal as it is right now.

[1Perry]

And let's not look past the heart of the issue - if Bonds was a nice guy or if he was white or if he was both, then this wouldn't nearly be as big of a deal as it is right now.

Completely untrue. McGwire was white and a nice guy. Nobody gives a flip about him today because of his cheating. He isn't invited nor does he show up at major events. His showing at the Congressional hearings were a major embarrassment for baseball and will likely delay his entry into the HOF.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by DR3AMR

Technically, he didn't cheat.

Big wow. Bonds may not have been violating official MLB rules at the time he was using steroids, but he certainly was aware that he was violating the fan's rules....we never approved of artificial enhancements and advantages, did we?

Are we now going to pretend that there was no awarness of steroids and how they imparted unfair edges to those using them? Are we pretending that we didn't know about East German women getting turned into virtual men for the Olympics or are unaware of athletes from other sports who got caught and disgraced? Athletes have been having to piss in bottles for a couple of decades now, that MLB did not have an official steroids policy was not a matter of it not having steroid users, it was a matter of the folks running the game hoping that no one would ever find out.

dr3, if you and I were competing in some sport or game, and after I won, you learned that I had done something, that while not actually against the rules, was indeed something which gave me an unfair advantage over you, would you still feel like you lost and the matter of who was best was settled?

"Technical" may apply to the law or what MLB can or cannot do to Bonds, but it does not apply to the spirit of the game nor to the expectations of the fans that it is natural ability on display, not chemically enhanced ability.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

"The crude, rude Ted Williams and Gary Sheffields, also the product of personal pathologies.

"The commonality is altletic greatness, but the commonality ends there."

That crude, rude Ted Williams lost 5.5+ seasons to military service and did a lot of work on behalf of kids and children's causes. Yep, he had a temper and a thin skin; but he never disgraced himself or the game, in spite of a few ill-considered gestures to boo-birds for which he paid heavy out-of-pocket fines.

Much of the good work for kids was unpublicized; there was more to Ted than the Jimmy Fund.

As to pathologies, I'm not a licensed shrink so I'll withold further comment.

Fine, but my point wasn't an argument to prove that Ted Williams was a jerk, it was to establish that athletic heroes are not going to all have heroic personalities. Bonds has done charity work as well but that fails to excuse his contemptuous treatment of others. Ted Williams, whatever else he was, was not Stan Musial.

[djwhokid]

I want to see an asterisk next to Babe Ruth's numbers who did not have to hit against the best in the world (or his own country for that matter)...AND had a ballpark built to suit his hitting.

Here is the answer, for those who hate Bonds on make believe evidence.
Prosecutor asked if Bonds had ever rubbed any creams or taken any clear substances before. Bonds said he had. The prosecutor said that sounded like what "the clear" and "the cream" were. Bonds said if he had ever done any steroid it was unknown to him.

For those of you who have never been athletes, there are many creams & clear substances. I used to use Icy Hot almost daily...it is a cream...some used Bengay...a cream. B12 can be put under the tonuge in a clear liquid form. I used to take this every day. I also took Flax seed oil under my tongue.

If you want to hate Bonds...do so on something that is true...to make up your own evidence to hate him is pretty pathetic. Hate him b/c he is a drunk, a womanizer & treats kids like crap...oh wait...that was Ruth...

Give me a break. Bonds didn't put the troops in Baghdad.... He didn't raise taxes.... HE IS A ENTERTAINER.... and he is a damn good one. This is suppose to be a celebration yet many of you want to be downers... pathetic.

I mean really, how does Barry breaking Aaron's record affect you?

[DR3AMR]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

"Technical" may apply to the law or what MLB can or cannot do to Bonds, but it does not apply to the spirit of the game nor to the expectations of the fans that it is natural ability on display, not chemically enhanced ability.

And that's how he'll be judged. But, you can't seperate Bonds from the rest of the game and say he was the only one playing dirty.

[DR3AMR]

Originally Posted by djwhokid

For those of you who have never been athletes, there are many creams & clear substances. I used to use Icy Hot almost daily...it is a cream...some used Bengay...a cream. B12 can be put under the tonuge in a clear liquid form. I used to take this every day. I also took Flax seed oil under my tongue.

Gimme a break. Whatever Bonds did it certainly wasn't limited to "creams and oils".

[nanwynnfan]

For perspective:


Baseball's Steroid Era: Baseball's Steroid Era - Timeline

“Apr. 2001 – MLB Implements Minor League Testing
MLB unilaterally implements its first random drug-testing program in the Minor Leagues. All players outside the 40-man roster of each Major League club are subject to random testing for steroid-based, performance enhancing drugs, plus drugs of abuse (marijuana, cocaine). The penalties are 15 games for a first positive test, 30 games for a second, 60 games for a third, and one year for a fourth. A fifth offense earns a ban from professional baseball for life.

[Observation]:

Barry Bonds has hit 73 HR during 2001 season, quickly breaking records set by McGwire & Sosa in previous seasons. This is the launching of a MLB program with minor leaguers as guinea pigs … 40 man roster players are exempt. They’te “trimming the bushes.”

“Jun. 18, 2002 – U.S. Senate Tells Selig, Fehr to Negotiate Testing
At a Senate Commerce Committee hearing in Washington, D.C., Senators Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and John McCain (R-Ariz) tell Commissioner Bud Selig and MLB Players Association executive director Don Fehr that a strict drug testing program at the Major League level must be negotiated during collective bargaining for a new Basic Agreement, which is about to expire. Up to this point, no MLB player can be tested for drug use without probable cause. Fehr tells the committee that the Congress should enact laws to ban over-the-counter sales of performance-enhancing substances.

[Observation]:

Bonds has hit 46 HR in the 2002 season. IF he was on “stuff” has he gotten the message. He HAD hit > 40HRs before [46, 1993]; [42, 1996]; [40, 1997]; [44, 1998]. The lawyers are now involved because until NOW players are exempt from mandatory testing except for PROBABLE CAUSE.






“Aug. 30, 2002 - MLB Unveils ‘Survey’ Testing For 2003
MLB and the union unveil Major League Baseball's Joint Drug Prevention and Treatment Program as an addendum to the new Basic Agreement, which is bargained at the 11th hour just as the players are about to go out on strike. The new policy calls for "Survey Testing" in 2003 to gauge the use of steroids among players on the 40-man rosters of each club. The tests will be anonymous and no one will be punished.
“NO ONE WILL BE PUNISHED!” [even if caught].
Oct. 29, 2003 – FDA Bans THG, MLB Follows Suit
The FDA bans THG. The next day MLB places the designer drug on its testing list for the 2004 season, but is barred by its own agreement from retroactively re-testing the 2003 urine samples for THG traces.”

[Observation]

Here comes “the Clear” issue. Did he or didn’t he? But Bond’s breakout season was two whole years ago; and now he’s in the 40s, where he’s been before. Did he cheat? If so, did he come late to the party? Has he now got “religion?”

Now, how about the older guys, some long dead? Did any of them gulp amphetamines or other forms of speed? Who knows? Want to dig ‘em up and go for DNA surveys on their remains? How’s about living legends. Wanna get hair samples and run ‘em through electron microscopes for tell-tale remnants of past sins?

Ex post facto, retroactive morality loses much of its authority, after the turnstiles have been permitted to spin and the ad revenues have been pocketed. Give George Mitchell something constructive to do; and start watching A-Rod and Albert Pujols with an eye to the future.

[nanwynnfan]

"Ted Williams, whatever else he was, was not Stan Musial."

As Shakespeare would say, "signifying nothing."

[bedir than average]

What always bugs me about the defense of Bonds is the idea that everything he did was alright because it wasn't against the rules of baseball. Some would ignore the violations of federal law as if the MLB CBA overruled the laws under which we all live.

[nanwynnfan]

GS, RE:

"Big wow. Bonds may not have been violating official MLB rules at the time he was using steroids, but he certainly was aware that he was violating the fan's rules....we never approved of artificial enhancements and advantages, did we?

"Are we now going to pretend that there was no awarness of steroids and how they imparted unfair edges to those using them? Are we pretending that we didn't know about East German women getting turned into virtual men for the Olympics or are unaware of athletes from other sports who got caught and disgraced?"

If any other poster, on any of these boards, had tried to make a convincing article based on emotion and idealistic homily as you have above, you'd have skewered them like tidbits on a kabob, mercilessly.