Black and Konstanty: Not Today

LouGehrig · July 23rd, 2007, 03:24 PM

This could never happen TODAY.

Black and Konstanty Started: The Yankees Faced Great Relievers in Game 1 of Two World Series

Goose · July 23rd, 2007, 05:23 PM

Yeah know, there is a Yankee board....

LouGehrig · July 23rd, 2007, 06:52 PM

I thought Black pitched for Brooklyn and Konstanty for Philadelphia. Last I heard, Smoltz was with Atlanta.

nanwynnfan · July 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM

I believe the poster identified Black as a Brooklyn Dodger and Konstanty as a Phillie correctly.

Interesting thing about Joe Black was his unique warmup routine, staring with a long toss at around 80 feet from the catcher and graduallt throwing harder at 70 feet, and harder yet at 65 feet.

By the time he was ready to toss those final warmup pitches, 60'6" must have looked like a short putt. That was the psychology and the effectiveness behind his fastball.

Whether that routine hurt his arm I have no idea; but it sure worked for awhile.

Modern pitchers are bigger and stronger; but they are also ridiculously pampered, which, IMO saps their endurance and nullifies their potential power. Most knowledgeable trainers know that performance, strength and refined skills come from proper exertion, muscle use and rhythm, npt from an abundance of conservation.

nanwynnfan · July 23rd, 2007, 10:58 PM

As to the author's topic, "Not Today," he's plain wrong. After not making a start since 2002, Julian Tavaras mad 18 starts for the Red Sox this season; and he's going back to the 'pen as cancer-rehabbed Jon Lester made an effective return tonight against Cleveland.

LouGehrig · July 25th, 2007, 01:31 PM

Julian Taveras is hardly a major league pitcher. Anyway, he started the season as a starter after Jon Papelbon decided he would risk his career and go to the bullpen. Taveras and others can pitch in either relief or as a starter, but the article points out that after pitching in relief 54 times, Black started his first game in late September.

Who has done that lately?

I thought you could say, "no one."

LouGehrig · July 25th, 2007, 01:34 PM

Charlie Dressen thought that Black needed another pitch. No one knew more baseball than Charlie, at least according to Charlie.

Black developed a sore arm and never came close to being as effective as he had been in 1952.

nanwynnfan · July 25th, 2007, 09:42 PM

"Julian Taveras is hardly a major league pitcher."

That got me looking up Tavarez' record. He's certainly and up & down year guy; but when he's been on his game, he very much is a Major League pitcher.

I won't copy the numbers here; but look at his 1995, 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 seasons ... & check out his ERA+ each of those seasons.

Moreover, despite some lousy years, his lifetime W-L record is 82-67, so I'd say that, yes, he's a MLB pitcher, if erratic.

Now, in the context of the article, being compared to Joe Black's one big season and Konstanty who had more than a few, I believe the Tavarez call to take up a part in the starting rotation is comparable.

Heck, from 2003 through 2005 he appeared in 205 games, all in relief. About ten years into a checkered career, being called upon to make 18 starts is a fairly demanding adjustment.

LouGehrig · July 26th, 2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nanwynnfan

"Julian Taveras is hardly a major league pitcher."

That got me looking up Tavarez' record. He's certainly and up & down year guy; but when he's been on his game, he very much is a Major League pitcher.

I won't copy the numbers here; but look at his 1995, 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 seasons ... & check out his ERA+ each of those seasons.

Moreover, despite some lousy years, his lifetime W-L record is 82-67, so I'd say that, yes, he's a MLB pitcher, if erratic.

Now, in the context of the article, being compared to Joe Black's one big season and Konstanty who had more than a few, I believe the Tavarez call to take up a part in the starting rotation is comparable.

Heck, from 2003 through 2005 he appeared in 205 games, all in relief. About ten years into a checkered career, being called upon to make 18 starts is a fairly demanding adjustment.

I agree with you, especially in this era, but one of my points is that Black was really good and might have had a great, short career if Dressen had left him alone.

What Taveras did is fine, but I never thought of him as a pitcher who was reliable.

July 23rd, 2007, 03:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
LouGehrig Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 225	Black and Konstanty: Not Today This could never happen TODAY. Black and Konstanty Started: The Yankees Faced Great Relievers in Game 1 of Two World Series

July 23rd, 2007, 05:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Goose Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aberdeen,Wa Posts: 1,190	Yeah know, there is a Yankee board.... __________________ http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/843...idensigfd9.png

July 23rd, 2007, 08:24 PM	#4 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	I believe the poster identified Black as a Brooklyn Dodger and Konstanty as a Phillie correctly. Interesting thing about Joe Black was his unique warmup routine, staring with a long toss at around 80 feet from the catcher and graduallt throwing harder at 70 feet, and harder yet at 65 feet. By the time he was ready to toss those final warmup pitches, 60'6" must have looked like a short putt. That was the psychology and the effectiveness behind his fastball. Whether that routine hurt his arm I have no idea; but it sure worked for awhile. Modern pitchers are bigger and stronger; but they are also ridiculously pampered, which, IMO saps their endurance and nullifies their potential power. Most knowledgeable trainers know that performance, strength and refined skills come from proper exertion, muscle use and rhythm, npt from an abundance of conservation. Last edited by nanwynnfan; July 23rd, 2007 at 08:27 PM.

July 23rd, 2007, 10:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	As to the author's topic, "Not Today," he's plain wrong. After not making a start since 2002, Julian Tavaras mad 18 starts for the Red Sox this season; and he's going back to the 'pen as cancer-rehabbed Jon Lester made an effective return tonight against Cleveland. Last edited by nanwynnfan; July 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 PM.

July 23rd, 2007, 06:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
LouGehrig Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 225	I thought Black pitched for Brooklyn and Konstanty for Philadelphia. Last I heard, Smoltz was with Atlanta.

July 25th, 2007, 01:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
LouGehrig Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 225	Julian Taveras is hardly a major league pitcher. Anyway, he started the season as a starter after Jon Papelbon decided he would risk his career and go to the bullpen. Taveras and others can pitch in either relief or as a starter, but the article points out that after pitching in relief 54 times, Black started his first game in late September. Who has done that lately? I thought you could say, "no one."

July 25th, 2007, 01:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
LouGehrig Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 225	Charlie Dressen thought that Black needed another pitch. No one knew more baseball than Charlie, at least according to Charlie. Black developed a sore arm and never came close to being as effective as he had been in 1952.

July 25th, 2007, 09:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
nanwynnfan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 2,579	"Julian Taveras is hardly a major league pitcher." That got me looking up Tavarez' record. He's certainly and up & down year guy; but when he's been on his game, he very much is a Major League pitcher. I won't copy the numbers here; but look at his 1995, 2000, 2003, 2004, and 2005 seasons ... & check out his ERA+ each of those seasons. Moreover, despite some lousy years, his lifetime W-L record is 82-67, so I'd say that, yes, he's a MLB pitcher, if erratic. Now, in the context of the article, being compared to Joe Black's one big season and Konstanty who had more than a few, I believe the Tavarez call to take up a part in the starting rotation is comparable. Heck, from 2003 through 2005 he appeared in 205 games, all in relief. About ten years into a checkered career, being called upon to make 18 starts is a fairly demanding adjustment.