What About Florida?

[jtur88]

The state of Florida is basking under two MLB franchises, but making almost no ticket-sales contribution to MLB. Even when their teams are in the pennant race, Floridians refuse to attend their games, so why should franchises be wasted there?

Instead, leave Yankee Stadim and Shea Stadium intact, move the Rays and Marlins to New York, and let fans who are willing to go to games watch them every night. Furthermore, all teams will be required to move their Florida spring training sites to some other state. Florida deserves nothing, but they can keep their college football if they want.

Every market should have a team conditionally. Any team that draws less than 5-million over a three-year period automatically loses their team to New York. That's 20,000 a game. There are cities where teams are supported. Why should there be teams anywhere else? If the whole Major Leagues consists of teams in New York, what harm is done, if nobody goes to see them in other cities.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Any team that draws less than 5-million over a three-year period automatically loses their team to New York. That's 20,000 a game. There are cities where teams are supported. Why should there be teams anywhere else? If the whole Major Leagues consists of teams in New York, what harm is done, if nobody goes to see them in other cities.

There would already be a healthy number of franchises in NY had this plan been in action the last few decades. Both the Giants and the A's have had period which would have qualified them under the five million in three years. Both of the Florida franchises would be there as well as Kansas City and Pittsburgh, The Braves were below the mark '88 through '90, so they would be the Brooklyn Braves. The Mets '94-96 qualify them, but of course they are already there, so how do we cope with that? Brewers? ? Yup, they fell below 5 million '94-'96 as well. Throw out the strike years? They still qualify '96 through any combination up to 2001. Astors, yes, '90-'92. Tigers? They would be the Staten Island Tigers based on their failure '01 through '03.

Perhaps a new stadium could be erected at the ground zero site where once the Twin Towers stoodd, to host the Twins who would have been sentenced to New York based on any combination of years '96 through '00. And the White Sox, '97-'99, The Manhattan Mariners would have already been long established, shifted to NY following their inability to draw '88 through '90. The Rangers would have been their even sooner, based on their dismal '80 through '85 seasons. And of course the Nationals would have never even made it to Washington, they didn't draw flies as the Expos and would have come straight to NY from Montreal.

Will all these teams be using Yankee Stadium and Shea?

[bigheadache]

Just think of all the ballparks you could make out of Central Park. Just think of it, The Rays of Central Park.

Get rid of the Statue of Liberty. that don't let anyone go up in it anymore, too dangerous. Just take a ferry to Libery Park to watch the Mrlins play.

[Zen653]

Miami and Tampa Bay do not deserve Major League Baseball teams.

I gave Tampa Bay a pass in previous seasons because the Rays were perennial cellar-dwellers, but what's the excuse now? We're more than a week into September, the Rays find themselves in first place, and yet the team ranks 26th in MLB attendance, despite its outstanding record, and despite its 18 automatic 30,000+ nights whenever Bostonians and New Yorkers descend upon Tropicana Field for Red Sox and Yankees games. I can't think of any other city (maybe not even Miami) where a first place team would struggle to draw 15,000 fans in September. It's beyond pathetic. There are AAA markets, even AA markets, that would draw better than Tampa Bay and Miami.

I feel bad for Montrealers because there's not a doubt in my mind that Olympic Stadium would be packed with fans if the Rays were in Montreal. The problem in Montreal was the lack of any prospective ownership group willing to own a team there. The city had well over 10 years to get its act together and it failed. Now with the U.S dollar and Canadian dollar closer in value, and the two Florida teams clearly struggling, it's sad that a market which would be larger than 14 current MLB cities, and which has a rich tradition in the sport, continues to show no interest in obtaining a franchise. I don't know if it's a cultural issue, political indifference, or some other factor, but it doesn't make much sense to me. The Rays would be extremely successful in Montreal, especially as an AL East team. With 27 out of 81 home games against Toronto, Boston and New York (three cities with relatively close geographic proximity to Montreal), the Montreal Rays (or Expos, if they want their old name back) would probably be no worse than middle of the pack, attendance-wise. Let's not forget that even in the NL East, the Expos out-drew both New York teams during the 80s, and as recently as 2003, drew some big late season crowds while on the periphery of the wild card race.

I'd like to see the Rays in Montreal and the Marlins in Boston. A second team in Boston would force the Red Sox to lower ticket prices and compete more aggressively for advertising and television revenues. I don't think a National League team in Boston would overtake the Red Sox in popularity any time soon, but it would easily draw 20,000+ per game at a higher average ticket price, and that would certainly be better than the paltry attendance in Miami. The Boston Marlins could share Fenway Park with the Red Sox for a few years while a new stadium gets built along the South Boston waterfront (it would have to be privately financed; Massachusetts and Boston politicians hate to publicly finance stadiums, which probably rules out the Marlins unless Loria is willing to take on a Boston-based co-owner, such as the concessionaire who wanted to buy the Red Sox in 2002.)

[jtur88]

What happened in Montrral had nothing to do with management. It was effectively a boycott of MLB because the Expos got screwed out of the only World Series they had a shot at. After that, fans just decided they were fed up with baseball, and they went back to hockey and the CFL. Their mamangement developed some good talent and fielded some quality, competitive teams. The fans got burned by baseball, not the Expos

[Joe Strummer]

How about Vancouver? Vancouver Devil Rays sound good to me. They would have to build a new stadium but I would like to see that someday. And if Montreal did return I think they would be better off in the American League. That way they would play games against Toronto, start a rivalry and get good crowds.
A 2nd team in Boston would be interesting. But would some of the people of Boston switch over? I don't live in Boston, but I'm thinking if Toronto got a 2nd NHL team for example. Would every one become a Toronto Predators or Toronto Panthers fan?

[Grandstander]

With Florida, it may be demographic circumstances which stand in the way of successful franchises there.

We know that Florida has an unusually large percentage of transplanted residents who did not move there until their later years. Among those who were also baseball fans, they would be bringing with them a lifelong rooting interest in the teams where they previously lived. I think that if you move to a region when you are 30 years old or younger, you are more likely to be able to develop a new rooting interest in a different team, but for those that have been Yankee or Red Sox fans for fifty or sixty years, that sticks and the new team is never taken to heart.

Thus, a great many Floridians are willing to turn out when their old rooting interest team comes to town, but otherwise no.

Florida had no baseball tradition at all apart from hosting Spring Training. Growing up a baseball fan in Miami was frustrating for me because the only professional game available was the Single A level Miami Marlins. Minor League ball was unsatisfying because you knew that you were not watching a truly competitve game. The purpose of an affiliated minor league team is not to win the league championship, it is to develop players for the ML clubs who are footing the bills. Thus, even a team which is closing in on a title, is still subject to suddenly having the best players yanked from the roster and moved to a higher level team. The needs of the fans of an affiliated minor league team are always going to be subordinate to the needs of the ML club. It's not the sort of situation where your heart winds up getting invested in a team, it feels too much like exhibition ball. Thus, not much of a ready made fan base was ever created in Florida before the Marlins came into being.

[Zen653]

What happened in Montrral had nothing to do with management.

It ultimately had everything to do with management. The Expos left Montreal because no one wanted to own them there. Had a Montreal-based ownership group offered to purchase the team from MLB, the Expos would still be in Montreal. It's hard to blame the league for relocating a franchise when no one of means wants to keep the team at its present location.

It was effectively a boycott of MLB because the Expos got screwed out of the only World Series they had a shot at.

While the 1994 strike certainly dampened enthusiasm for baseball, it did not eviscerate it. The 1995 Expos averaged 18,189 fans per game. The 1996 Expos drew 19,959 per game. That's less than 1,000 fans fewer per game than what the pre-strike 1993 Expos averaged (20,265.) For a stretch late in the 2003 season, the lame duck Expos averaged 20,000+ per game.

While Bud Selig and MLB are convenient scapegoats for the demise of baseball in Montreal, the reality is that management rarely fielded competitive teams, and the city's business community wanted nothing to do with the Expos. For a few years, you couldn't even watch the Expos on local television or listen to them on English language radio. And their mausoleum of a stadium was in decrepit condition, at a terrible location. In any other sports league, the Expos would have been gone at the first hint of trouble. Yet MLB permitted the Expos to languish in Montreal for well over a decade, before finally moving them to another city. Montreal had every opportunity to keep its team.

Maybe Montrealers are just a bunch of front-runners, but even so, that would at least mean respectable crowds for a team such as this year's Rays. Tampa can't even draw well with a first place team.

[jtur88]

GS, while it is true that transplanted population in Florida probably has some effect on fan allegiances, Florida is not unique in that. Here are the population increases of five states with MLB teams from 1980 to 2007:

Arizona 133%
Florida 87%
Georgia 75%
Texas 68%
Callifornia 54%

Placement and suitability of a stadium probably plays a greater role. If the Rays played in Tampa, they would be in the larger population center of the metroplex, and a half hour closer to Orlando, and at least a million people a year are probably unwilling to drive across that causeway and back to a game. And even in Miami, fans do not want to sit in 95 degrees or rain or both in a football stadium. The geography disadvantage is that Miami is a linear market, so there are a lot of people 50+ miles away, no matter where you put a stadium.