Who's Missing From the Hall That You'd Elect?

Triad · July 31st, 2008, 09:24 AM

Among players who have been retired at least 5 years, who isn't in that you think deserves to be?

I'll go position by position, on my opinions. I'll put borderline players (ones I could go either way on) in parentheses. Most egregious ones to me are in bold.

—1B—
Dick Allen
Keith Hernandez
Mark McGwire
(Will Clark)

—2B—
Bobby Grich
Joe Gordon
(Lou Whitaker)

—SS—
Alan Trammell
Vern Stephens

—3B—
Ron Santo
Darrell Evans
(Stan Hack)
(Sal Bando)

—C—
Ted Simmons
Joe Torre
Thurman Munson

—LF—
Minnie Minoso
Pete Rose
Joe Jackson
Tim Raines
(Jim Rice)

—CF—
Dale Murphy
Vada Pinson
Andre Dawson
Jim Wynn
Al Oliver

—RF—
Dwight Evans
Bobby Bonds
Rocky Colavito
(Dave Parker)
(Tony Oliva)
(Albert Belle)

—SP—
Bucky Walters
Tommy John
Jack Morris
Orel Hershiser
(Bert Blyleven)
(Luis Tiant)

—RP—
Dan Quisenberry
(John Wetteland)

DR3AMR · July 31st, 2008, 10:28 AM

Dale Murphy

2-time MVP
best player on Braves for a decade
Arguably best player of the 80s
Haters hate because he didn't get to 400 hrs

djwhokid · July 31st, 2008, 12:12 PM

The most egregious mistake: Bert Blyleven

Nat · August 2nd, 2008, 06:08 AM

I've always been a Blyleven booster, and I could see the case for Santo as well. McGwire I could see eventually getting in. Torre's true test for getting in (as a manager) will be determined how he does in his post-Yankee years.
A case could be made for Luis Tiant as well, given his comparability to Marichel & Hunter, but unlikely to happen this late in the game.

jtur88 · August 2nd, 2008, 01:01 PM

Let's assume that Don Drysdale is the minimum standard.

Jack Morris and Luis Tiant both won more games than Drysdale, AND had more 20-win seasons than Drysdale, AND had a higher W/L pct. then Drysdale. So, what else do they have to do in order to meet the Drysdale standard?

JoseA · August 3rd, 2008, 11:46 AM

Bert Blyleven, Luis Tiant, Tommy John, and Andre Dawson in my opinion are all deserving of the HOF

LongtimeBravesFan · August 3rd, 2008, 04:00 PM

McGwire was borderline for me before he began his late career home run burst. Considering the "help" he had getting those home runs, I will not support his inclusion.

Nat · August 4th, 2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtur88

Let's assume that Don Drysdale is the minimum standard.

Jack Morris and Luis Tiant both won more games than Drysdale, AND had more 20-win seasons than Drysdale, AND had a higher W/L pct. then Drysdale. So, what else do they have to do in order to meet the Drysdale standard?

The Drysdale standard isn't really the Hall standard tho. By the same token, if Phil Rizzuto was the minimum standard for all SS and Tony Perez for all 1B...they'd have to build a new wing for the good-but-not-great.

Grandstander · August 4th, 2008, 06:06 AM

Triad.....Joe Jackson unzipped his fly and took a rather large piss on the integrity of the sport, and you want to put him in the HoF?

Regardless of how well he played in the 1919 World Series, the undisputed facts are that Joe Jackson accepted 5000 dollars to be part of a conspiracy to defraud the fans.

Did Joe Jackson refuse to take the bribe? Joe Jackson took the bribe.

Did Joe Jackson keep his mouth shut about the fact that the games were not on the level? Joe Jackson alerted no one.

Did Joe Jackson particpate in professional baseball games where he was completely aware that the outcomes were being staged? Joe Jackson particpated and was paid for his trouble and his silence.

He was a great player who easily would belong had he not taken the corrupt road. But he did take the corrupt road and he is quite justly disqualified from being honored by the sport he dishonored.

As for who belongs in the Hall who isn't in as of yet, I say no players, the list at the start of this thread is made up exclusively of marginal HoFers and my feeling is that the shrine should be reserved for only those for whom there is no question. If there is an argument over whether or not someone was an immortal of the game, then that person probaly wasn't an immortal.

The most glaring ommission isn't a player, it's Marvin Miller who has been rejected a half dozen times now in the voting. There is no individual who so strongly influenced the nature of the game in the last part of the 20th Century, yet he waits while they induct announcers.

jtur88 · August 4th, 2008, 08:54 AM

The reason for the Hall of Fame (at least in part) was to create a lasting reference to the players who were the stars of their times, for the generations that would be born long afterwards. When I was a kid, I knew about Zack Wheat and Edd Roush, but it was years later before I knew about Carson Bigbee and Walt Cruise, because the Hall of Fame kept the memorable players in the living room. The question is, did Mark McGwire dominate an era that a kid in 2050 will want and need to know about? The value of the HoF is not in rewarding players because they were fine people, but enabling future generations to have a concept of who the outstanding playes were in the past. The Hall fails to accomplish something important, if future kids have to say "Dad, how come Jackson and Rose and McGwire are not in the Hall of Fame, after batting .350 and getting 4,000 hits and hitting 70 homers?

But then, Jackson and Rose remain much more talked about in baseball circles than Bottomley and Carew, so maybe the true honor lies in being denied entry into the Hall. Let's keep McGwire out, so his achievements will be remembered, instead of dumping him onto the Freddie Lindstrom and Tony Perez trash-heap.

Grandstander · August 4th, 2008, 03:54 PM

jtur:

Quote:

The Hall fails to accomplish something important, if future kids have to say "Dad, how come Jackson and Rose and McGwire are not in the Hall of Fame, after batting .350 and getting 4,000 hits and hitting 70 homers?

I appreciate the general sentiment of your post, but the above suggests that covering up the truth about player's misconduct is an important accomplishment.

Should we rehabilitate Benedict Arnold as the hero he once was because we fear children asking why there aren't any Benedict Arnold High Schools, Counties, Bridges or Freeways?

LongtimeBravesFan · August 4th, 2008, 08:45 PM

Gee, Dad, why isn't Richard Nixon in the Hstory Hall of Fame? He was twice elcted president, one time by one of the biggest landslides ever. The Vietnam War ended during his tenure and he was the first to visit China and had arms reduction talks with the Soviets.

jtur88 · August 4th, 2008, 08:50 PM

Should we put Jerry Terrell in the Hall of Fame, for all the good work he did for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes? Or is it all about playing performance on the field during games?

Actually, I should be more careful about suggesting things like that, or they will start something like the NHL's Lady Byng Trophy, and induct he winners into a special wing in the Hall. Posthumously, of course, so nobody like Gerry Priddy gets in and then hihacks a plane or something.

Ninersrule · August 5th, 2008, 04:29 AM

How Davey Concepcion from the Big Red Machine:

Concepcion-2488 games/8723 AB/2326 HITS/389 2B/46 3B/101 HR/950 RBI
736 BB/1186 SO/321 SB/.267 BA

Ozzie Smith-2573 G/9396 AB/2460 HITS/402 2B/69 3B/28 HR/793 RBI/1072 BB
589 SO/580 SB/.282 BA

very comparable stats I think- Davey had more power and far more RBI,
but played on some great teams that were more solid up the middle from
Bench-Morgan- Geronimo and Concepcion- all of these won at least 3 gold gloves, plus Davey played on more championship teams than Ozzie- who was
great and spectacular- while Davey was just solid.

Grandstander · August 5th, 2008, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtur88

Should we put Jerry Terrell in the Hall of Fame, for all the good work he did for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes? Or is it all about playing performance on the field during games?

No, we should not put Terrell in the HoF for his conduct unrelated to the sport. Yes, we should exclude people from Halls of Fame for disgraceful conduct related to their sports.

Joe Jackson accepted money to fix the outcome of games.

Pete Rose decided he could be an exception to one of baseball's clearest and strongest rules regarding gambling.

Mark McGwire made himself into a greater hero than he deserved to be by the use of artificial enhancements.

In the above three cases, those players were engaging in conduct which placed the credibility of the game in question. Terrel's work with Christian Athletes neither promoted nor damaged his sport directly, did it? It neither enhanced the credibility nor eroded it. It is utterly unrelated to honoring him for his achievements or failures on the field of play.

July 31st, 2008, 09:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
Triad Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 252	Who's Missing From the Hall That You'd Elect? Among players who have been retired at least 5 years, who isn't in that you think deserves to be? I'll go position by position, on my opinions. I'll put borderline players (ones I could go either way on) in parentheses. Most egregious ones to me are in bold. —1B— Dick Allen Keith Hernandez Mark McGwire (Will Clark) —2B— Bobby Grich Joe Gordon (Lou Whitaker) —SS— Alan Trammell Vern Stephens —3B— Ron Santo Darrell Evans (Stan Hack) (Sal Bando) —C— Ted Simmons Joe Torre Thurman Munson —LF— Minnie Minoso Pete Rose Joe Jackson Tim Raines (Jim Rice) —CF— Dale Murphy Vada Pinson Andre Dawson Jim Wynn Al Oliver —RF— Dwight Evans Bobby Bonds Rocky Colavito (Dave Parker) (Tony Oliva) (Albert Belle) —SP— Bucky Walters Tommy John Jack Morris Orel Hershiser (Bert Blyleven) (Luis Tiant) —RP— Dan Quisenberry (John Wetteland) Last edited by Triad; July 31st, 2008 at 03:09 PM.

July 31st, 2008, 10:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
DR3AMR Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 6,194	Dale Murphy 2-time MVP best player on Braves for a decade Arguably best player of the 80s Haters hate because he didn't get to 400 hrs __________________ Gingrich/Petraeus 2012

August 2nd, 2008, 06:08 AM	#4 (permalink)
Nat Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,351	I've always been a Blyleven booster, and I could see the case for Santo as well. McGwire I could see eventually getting in. Torre's true test for getting in (as a manager) will be determined how he does in his post-Yankee years. A case could be made for Luis Tiant as well, given his comparability to Marichel & Hunter, but unlikely to happen this late in the game. __________________ Greatest moment of the 2008 election: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3279/...ef8de914_o.jpg

August 2nd, 2008, 01:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	Let's assume that Don Drysdale is the minimum standard. Jack Morris and Luis Tiant both won more games than Drysdale, AND had more 20-win seasons than Drysdale, AND had a higher W/L pct. then Drysdale. So, what else do they have to do in order to meet the Drysdale standard? __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much.

August 3rd, 2008, 11:46 AM	#6 (permalink)
JoseA Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: USA Posts: 2,097	Bert Blyleven, Luis Tiant, Tommy John, and Andre Dawson in my opinion are all deserving of the HOF __________________ Register here and join the discussion

August 3rd, 2008, 04:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
LongtimeBravesFan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,655	McGwire was borderline for me before he began his late career home run burst. Considering the "help" he had getting those home runs, I will not support his inclusion.

August 4th, 2008, 06:06 AM	#9 (permalink)
Grandstander Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Northern California Posts: 6,611	Triad.....Joe Jackson unzipped his fly and took a rather large piss on the integrity of the sport, and you want to put him in the HoF? Regardless of how well he played in the 1919 World Series, the undisputed facts are that Joe Jackson accepted 5000 dollars to be part of a conspiracy to defraud the fans. Did Joe Jackson refuse to take the bribe? Joe Jackson took the bribe. Did Joe Jackson keep his mouth shut about the fact that the games were not on the level? Joe Jackson alerted no one. Did Joe Jackson particpate in professional baseball games where he was completely aware that the outcomes were being staged? Joe Jackson particpated and was paid for his trouble and his silence. He was a great player who easily would belong had he not taken the corrupt road. But he did take the corrupt road and he is quite justly disqualified from being honored by the sport he dishonored. As for who belongs in the Hall who isn't in as of yet, I say no players, the list at the start of this thread is made up exclusively of marginal HoFers and my feeling is that the shrine should be reserved for only those for whom there is no question. If there is an argument over whether or not someone was an immortal of the game, then that person probaly wasn't an immortal. The most glaring ommission isn't a player, it's Marvin Miller who has been rejected a half dozen times now in the voting. There is no individual who so strongly influenced the nature of the game in the last part of the 20th Century, yet he waits while they induct announcers.

August 4th, 2008, 08:54 AM	#10 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	The reason for the Hall of Fame (at least in part) was to create a lasting reference to the players who were the stars of their times, for the generations that would be born long afterwards. When I was a kid, I knew about Zack Wheat and Edd Roush, but it was years later before I knew about Carson Bigbee and Walt Cruise, because the Hall of Fame kept the memorable players in the living room. The question is, did Mark McGwire dominate an era that a kid in 2050 will want and need to know about? The value of the HoF is not in rewarding players because they were fine people, but enabling future generations to have a concept of who the outstanding playes were in the past. The Hall fails to accomplish something important, if future kids have to say "Dad, how come Jackson and Rose and McGwire are not in the Hall of Fame, after batting .350 and getting 4,000 hits and hitting 70 homers? But then, Jackson and Rose remain much more talked about in baseball circles than Bottomley and Carew, so maybe the true honor lies in being denied entry into the Hall. Let's keep McGwire out, so his achievements will be remembered, instead of dumping him onto the Freddie Lindstrom and Tony Perez trash-heap. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much.

August 4th, 2008, 08:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
LongtimeBravesFan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,655	Gee, Dad, why isn't Richard Nixon in the Hstory Hall of Fame? He was twice elcted president, one time by one of the biggest landslides ever. The Vietnam War ended during his tenure and he was the first to visit China and had arms reduction talks with the Soviets.

August 4th, 2008, 08:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	Should we put Jerry Terrell in the Hall of Fame, for all the good work he did for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes? Or is it all about playing performance on the field during games? Actually, I should be more careful about suggesting things like that, or they will start something like the NHL's Lady Byng Trophy, and induct he winners into a special wing in the Hall. Posthumously, of course, so nobody like Gerry Priddy gets in and then hihacks a plane or something. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much. Last edited by jtur88; August 4th, 2008 at 08:54 PM.

August 5th, 2008, 04:29 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ninersrule Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: C-Bus/Buckeye Country Posts: 120	How Davey Concepcion from the Big Red Machine: Concepcion-2488 games/8723 AB/2326 HITS/389 2B/46 3B/101 HR/950 RBI 736 BB/1186 SO/321 SB/.267 BA Ozzie Smith-2573 G/9396 AB/2460 HITS/402 2B/69 3B/28 HR/793 RBI/1072 BB 589 SO/580 SB/.282 BA very comparable stats I think- Davey had more power and far more RBI, but played on some great teams that were more solid up the middle from Bench-Morgan- Geronimo and Concepcion- all of these won at least 3 gold gloves, plus Davey played on more championship teams than Ozzie- who was great and spectacular- while Davey was just solid. __________________ "You may find that having, is not so pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true." -Spock from "Amok Time"