Speedsters With Plate Discipline

Triad · 06-27-2008, 05:57 PM

Players who are a threat to steal typically don't walk that much, probably usually because either they don't have enough discipline or the pitcher can afford to give them fatter pitchers if they don't have much power, or when they're leading off the game and no one's on base. Plus, they bat after the 9th batter, who is often the pitcher. It's the speedsters who would benefit the most from a walk, turning into a spot at 2nd base 75-80% of the time, which with two outs is like gold.

So here's the players who've had 50+ SB and 80+ BB in a season more than once, with the number of times they've done it:

10 - Rickey Henderson
5 - Joe Morgan
5 - Tim Raines
4 - Eddie Collins
3 - Bob Bescher
2 - Kenny Lofton
2 - Brett Butler

These are the guys, particularly those near the top, who are vastly undervalued by OPS.

Special notation: There are only 12 occurrences of 50+ SB and 100+ BB in a season. Joe Morgan did it five consecutive seasons (1972-76), and four of those years were with fewer than 150 games played. Rickey Henderson had 4 seasons of 50+ SB and 100+ BB. Three others each did it once.

In other words, Morgan and Henderson were studs. The pitchers didn't want to walk them, yet they still were able to consistenly coax walks out of them. Someday these two will get the recognition they deserve as being upper tier players. Morgan does in some circles, but that may be a lot due to being part of the Big Red Machine mystique. I'm confident that Henderson will someday be viewed sabermetrically as the third greatest left fielder ever, behind only Bonds and Williams, and ahead of Musial, et al (though Musial hiimself was also great). With Henderson's luck, it will take 25 years for that recognition to occur, and by then some other guy will come along and move him back down a notch.

Rickey's stolen base numbers are so gaudy that people key on that, and he's looked at by the casual observer as merely "the best leadoff hitter ever," but I think that sells him short. Raines was also really good, but he couldn't carry Henderson's gym shorts.
___________________________

SB totals prior to 1900 are inflated, so they are not used.

jtur88 · 06-27-2008, 06:59 PM

If Morgan had hit only about a third of his 268 Homers, he'd never have even gotton to the HoF. Henderson, sans homers, likely the same. In both cases, it is likely that quite a few of their walks came with runners on bae, when their stolen-base risk was seen as the lesser of the evils.

Triad · 06-27-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtur88

If Morgan had hit only about a third of his 268 Homers, he'd never have even gotton to the HoF. Henderson, sans homers, likely the same. In both cases, it is likely that quite a few of their walks came with runners on bae, when their stolen-base risk was seen as the lesser of the evils.

Henderson is 1st all-time in runs scored. Don't you think that's impressive, even without the HRs?

Curious that in looking over the 1993 AL MVP voting, Henderson didn't get any votes at all, despite being 3rd in OBP, 2nd in walks, 5th in runs, 4th in steals, and 5th in offensive win percentage. 19 batters got votes, including Greg Gagne (who never had a good season), Don Mattingly (who hit .291 with 86 RBI), and Cal Ripken (who hit .257 with 90 RBI). And Henderson wasn't selected to the All-Star team either. I guess moving to the Blue Jays mid-season confused the voters who didn't have calculators with them.

06-27-2008, 05:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
Triad Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oregon Posts: 240	Speedsters With Plate Discipline Players who are a threat to steal typically don't walk that much, probably usually because either they don't have enough discipline or the pitcher can afford to give them fatter pitchers if they don't have much power, or when they're leading off the game and no one's on base. Plus, they bat after the 9th batter, who is often the pitcher. It's the speedsters who would benefit the most from a walk, turning into a spot at 2nd base 75-80% of the time, which with two outs is like gold. So here's the players who've had 50+ SB and 80+ BB in a season more than once, with the number of times they've done it: 10 - Rickey Henderson 5 - Joe Morgan 5 - Tim Raines 4 - Eddie Collins 3 - Bob Bescher 2 - Kenny Lofton 2 - Brett Butler These are the guys, particularly those near the top, who are vastly undervalued by OPS. Special notation: There are only 12 occurrences of 50+ SB and 100+ BB in a season. Joe Morgan did it five consecutive seasons (1972-76), and four of those years were with fewer than 150 games played. Rickey Henderson had 4 seasons of 50+ SB and 100+ BB. Three others each did it once. In other words, Morgan and Henderson were studs. The pitchers didn't want to walk them, yet they still were able to consistenly coax walks out of them. Someday these two will get the recognition they deserve as being upper tier players. Morgan does in some circles, but that may be a lot due to being part of the Big Red Machine mystique. I'm confident that Henderson will someday be viewed sabermetrically as the third greatest left fielder ever, behind only Bonds and Williams, and ahead of Musial, et al (though Musial hiimself was also great). With Henderson's luck, it will take 25 years for that recognition to occur, and by then some other guy will come along and move him back down a notch. Rickey's stolen base numbers are so gaudy that people key on that, and he's looked at by the casual observer as merely "the best leadoff hitter ever," but I think that sells him short. Raines was also really good, but he couldn't carry Henderson's gym shorts. ___________________________ SB totals prior to 1900 are inflated, so they are not used. Last edited by Triad; 06-27-2008 at 06:01 PM.

06-27-2008, 06:59 PM	#2 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,702	If Morgan had hit only about a third of his 268 Homers, he'd never have even gotton to the HoF. Henderson, sans homers, likely the same. In both cases, it is likely that quite a few of their walks came with runners on bae, when their stolen-base risk was seen as the lesser of the evils. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much. Last edited by jtur88; 06-27-2008 at 07:02 PM.