Rule Questions

[jtur88]

(Again, I'm posting this in two places, because there is no subcategory that it naturally fits into.)

Here's one that just occured to me.
Say the batter grounds in the infield, and the wild over-throw to first is touched by a spectator. But the batter missed first base, and went on to slide safely into second. Is he out on appeal for missing first? Or is he, on the overthrow and fan interference, entitled to at least first base, being one base after the last base he reached safely, interpreted as home while the batter? If the ball was dead as soon as it was touched by a fan, his act of stepping on second occurred during a dead ball, and is not relevant to missing first, right? If the umpire awards the bases after the interference, can missing first be appealed if the umpire has already awarded him second? Or must the umpire observe that first base was missed in making his award, without an appeal having been made by the defense?

[Grandstander]

The opposing manager would have to come out to the ump and complain about the missed base. If he does not, then the runner may stay on second.

If the manager does complain, the ump would then order the batter back to first to touch it, and then the runner would be entitled to advance to second due to the overthrow and deadball. The deadball aspect renders an appeal play at first, moot.

[jtur88]

Is it your opinion, then, that the fact of missing first base and proceding to second should carry no penalty, for no other reason than the ball was declared dead? A penalty that would have prevailed if no fan interference had occured? Should a subsequent fan interference negate a prior action that would have otherwise been punishable?

I believe the umpire is called upon to award such bases as would have (in his opinion) been reached had there been no interference. In this case, second base would clearly not have been reached legally.

I, as the umpire, if the play had been appealed, would have awarded the batter-runner first base, since the interference and subsequent dead ball nullified the runner's opportunity to right a wrong, which still would have been open to him if the ball were still in play. Second base if no appeal is made, first base it an appeal is made. Since he is entitled to the next base that he could have legally advanced to---namely, in this case, first.

[Grandstander]

Is it your opinion, then, that the fact of missing first base and proceding to second should carry no penalty, for no other reason than the ball was declared dead? A penalty that would have prevailed if no fan interference had occured? Should a subsequent fan interference negate a prior action that would have otherwise been punishable?

It isn't my opinion, it is the rules. That's like asking me if in my opinion, four balls should be a walk.

On appeal plays, the managers have until the pitcher goes into his set position for the next pitch, to gripe about what happened with the previous play. After that, too bad, too late.

So, had there been no fan interference, and the runner had reached secondbase without touching first, the opposing manager could have ordered an appeal, his pitcher touch the rubber, step off and then throw to first. The guy would be out (assuming the ump saw him miss first.) The deadball kills any possibility of an appeal because the runner was entitled to secondbase. If the opposing manager wishes to gripe, he may do so but it will not alter the situation, will it? At the end of his griping, it's still a runner on secondbase because he can go back, touch first, and then take second again..the ball is still dead.

You have to go by the rules, not by a private sense of justice.

[LongtimeBravesFan]

The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases. For example: batter hits a ground ball which an infielder throws into the stands but the batter runner missed first base. He may be called out on appeal for missing first base after the ball is put in play even though he was "awarded" second base. If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

Baseball Almanac - <TITLE>Baseball Almanac - Baseball Rules

The runner would need to go touch first base before going to second base in the situation you described. If he doesn't the other tream may appeal. If they don't, too bad for them.

[jtur88]

Thank you. It seems GS and I were both wrong.

[Grandstander]

I see the sense of the rule, they are treating being awarded secondbase the same as they would treat the batter reaching it by normal means.

Okay, we're all a bit smarter.

[jtur88]

The whole base-running rule is horribly more complex than it needs to be, though. Maybe time for some housecleaning. Im not sure I agree with the appeal on the missed base. If an umpire sees a player miss a base, call him out. That's how he calls all other outs.

[Grandstander]

I do agree that it is strange that certain calls by umps, which should be made, are not made unless a team appeals for him to make them. The ump seeing the play should be all that is required, as it is all that is required on most plays. If a runner leaves abase too soon on a sac fly, and the ump sees that he has left too soon....why does an opposing player also have to see it and petition the umpire to make a ruling? Instead of throwing it to the mound, then throwing it to the base and asking for a ruling, why can't they just throw it to the base and get a ruling right away? Why do some plays have such formality attached?

[LongtimeBravesFan]

So in theory, if a player hits the ball over the fence, he can just walk back to the dugout without touching any base or the plate, and he'd get credit for a home run if the other team doesn't appeal?

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by LongtimeBravesFan

So in theory, if a player hits the ball over the fence, he can just walk back to the dugout without touching any base or the plate, and he'd get credit for a home run if the other team doesn't appeal?

Well, apparently not.

[jtur88]

New Question:

With runner on first, batter hits a very high popup. Runner stays near first, and batter rounds first and passes the runner. The ball drifts foul.

Is the batter out for passing a preceding runner if the ball is not caught and falls foul? Does it matter if he passes the runner before or after it falls foul? (A foul ball in the air is still a live ball in play, because runners can advance after the catch. The ball is dead only after it falls foul.) Does a foul ball not caught nullify any advance by any runner, including one who passed a preceding runner before it fell foul?

Scoring question: If it is caught by the 3B, who gets the putout? The player making the catch, or the player closest to the passing-runner infraction? If the PO goes to the 1B and the 3B then tags a runner, is it a double play, and if so, how is it scored?

[Zen653]

I've always been confused by the rules regarding double switches (and the corresponding change in the batting order), and positional re-alignments, where a pitcher moves to another position for a batter and then returns to the mound, or where an outfielder comes in and effectively plays shortstop. Could someone explain to me the formalities of these situations and their limitations?

[Triad]

Originally Posted by jtur88

With runner on first, batter hits a very high popup. Runner stays near first, and batter rounds first and passes the runner. The ball drifts foul.

Is the batter out for passing a preceding runner if the ball is not caught and falls foul?

My interpretation of it is that for most purposes, it's no play until it either lands/stays or is touched fair, or is caught in foul territory. Basically whatever occurred in a foul play is wiped out, unless it involved something such as interference or a balk.

Originally Posted by jtur88

Does it matter if he passes the runner before or after it falls foul?

It wouldn't seem to matter one way or the other.

Originally Posted by jtur88

(A foul ball in the air is still a live ball in play, because runners can advance after the catch. The ball is dead only after it falls foul.)

It's only a potential live ball, which can be negated if it ends up foul and uncaught.

Originally Posted by jtur88

Scoring question: If it is caught by the 3B, who gets the putout? The player making the catch, or the player closest to the passing-runner infraction?

I think the 3B would get the putout, because that would be the first occurrence of the play. Everything else would follow from that.

I learned something interesting a couple weeks ago in a Little League game that I wished I'd known at the time the play occurred. Since you can't have a force play on an infield fly rule play, all runners must be tagged, otherwise they are safe. We had a runner advancing to 2nd base prior to the infield fly being called (when the ball was dropped), he slid into 2nd as the 2nd baseman caught the ball while standing on the base. The field umpire called the runner out, not thinking infield fly. (the home plate umpire called infield fly when the play was over) The runner who had been on 2nd base at the beginning of the play was completely disoriented, and stood frozen like a deer looking into the headlights about 10 feet from 2nd base. He then got tagged for what appeared to be the third out, but it turns out the second out of the inning wasn't the runner going the 2nd base but the batter being called out on an infield fly. This was critical, because the runner who began the play on 3rd base crossed home plate in the time between the runner at 2nd sliding into the base and the other runner being tagged. The opposing manager claimed that the runner tagged off 2nd base was the fourth out, and no runs should count on the play. It was an amateur umpire who knew less than the managers, so the play stood as interpreted by the opposing manager. Luckily, the lead by my son's team held in the bottom of the next inning, which was the last.

[jtur88]

My opinion: The umpire cannot call the IFR after the fact. Because it is a judgment call (If in the impires opinion the ball can be caught by an infielder), there is no IFR if it is not clearly called by the umpire with the ball in the air. Since it had not been called, the ball is in play, nobody is automatically out, all runners are forced.

There was an article in Baseball Digest, that reclounted four such incidents in the Major Leagues
Baseball rules corner: many players unaware of tag requirements when Infield Fly rule is called | Baseball Digest | Find Articles at BNET.com
but the article did not address the question of whether an umpire can call the IFR in retrospect, after all the baserunning and tags have been completed.