If Bonds & Clemens are voted into the HOF

[AlexdeLarge]

Should Pete Rose & Shoeless Joe Jackson be put in immediately?

I feel Pete didn't cause any harm to baseball (yeah he's stupid) but he only bet on his team to win, which in my eyes would only make him try harder to win!
In 1921, Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball due to his alleged involvement in the Black Sox scandal of 1919. But for nearly 90 years, fans have argued as to whether or not the White Sox legend truly deserves such a stiff penalty, especially when he was acquitted by a judge of any wrong doing.

World Series

Year 1919
G 8
AB 32
R 5
H 12
HR 1
RBI 6
2B 3
3B 0
BB 1
Avg .375

You kidding me, I wish one of my Braves could bat .375 get 12 hits, knock in 6 during a WS. and be accused or throwing the game.

Step up the the plate, and give us your vote and opinion on the matter

To me what Bonds & Clemens have done, far out weigh what Rose & Jackson did

[SugarBaby]

I'd have to agree with you there Alex. Of course Shoeless Joe was from right here in Greenville, SC, so of course he should be there. I never liked Pete Rose or the Reds. They have the ugliest uniforms in BB...red shoes and all.

[Grandstander]

Joe Jackson was not "acquitted by a judge of any wrong doing." Where did you get that idea? In a jury trial, understood by all at the time to be a complete farce rigged in favor of the players, a jury of White Sox baseball fans found them "Not guilty."

That of course does not mean that they were not guilty, only that the jury refused to convict them. Three of the players, Jackson included, confessed to the plot before a grand jury. Someone arranged to have the confessions stolen from the DA's office, thus they could not be admitted at the trial. That of course in no manner altered the fact that the confessions were made.

Further, a number of the Black Sox players, Jackson included, sued Charles Commiskey a few years later for backpay. Commiskey of course had stopped paying the players their salaries after they were suspended, and the players felt that the absense of a jury conviction meant that they were owed their salaries for the 1921 season in which they were not allowed to play. At this trial, the transcripts from which still exist, Jackson admitted to accepting 5000 dollars for his part in the scheme. He claimed that despite this, he still played to win.

But....he did know that the Series was rigged, he did accept money to defraud the public and his employer, he did participate in games with the knowledge that they were not on the level, but kept his mouth shut and kept the $5000.00.

Jackson was gulity....clearly guilty...guilty by his own admission.

The jury at the back wages trial was unimpressed by his claims of having played to win, the players did not receive a dime.

So, let's drop, for all time, this pretense of Joe Jackson being some innocent who was used and duped without knowledge. He took money to throw games, he kept the money, he did not rat out his co conspirators and he participated in games he knew for a fact were not on the level.

Hall of Fame....ha. No one who defrauds the public like that should be allowed to visit the Hall of Fame much less be honored by it.

[SugarBaby]

Preach it sister!

[AlexdeLarge]

"Shoeless" Joe Jackson - The Official Web Site

Got it right there. So what makes your sourse the right sourse?

Plus if Commiskey would have paid the players what they deserved it may never had happened to begin with. Commiskey was cheap, and not paying the going wage at the time, that's why it happened in the first place

[kflo]

rose and jackson violated rule #1 in baseball. yes, worse than clemens and bonds, particularly in light of the era that they did it. there wasn't a giant sign on the front of every lockerroom saying don't do steroids. i do have less of a problem with jackson getting in than rose because he's dead.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by AlexdeLarge

"Shoeless" Joe Jackson - The Official Web Site

Got it right there. So what makes your sourse the right sourse?

Plus if Commiskey would have paid the players what they deserved it may never had happened to begin with. Commiskey was cheap, and not paying the going wage at the time, that's why it happened in the first place

That's a tribute cite, not any sort of investigation. That is not any sort of a legitimate source for determining Jackson's guilt or non guilt.

You interested in the truth? Here:
Amazon.com: Burying the Black Sox: How Baseball's Cover-Up of the 1919 World Series Fix Almost Succeeded: Books: Gene Carney

This was published less than a year ago and is the most exhaustive study of the Black Sox that has ever been released. I bought it, I read it, I have it....have you read it?

It is not well written, the author's style is plodding and academic. It's rather boring in places because it isn't a straight forward narrative as was "Eight Men Out". Rather, it is an examination and critique of all existing evidence. What it is...is factual and unromantic.

There is not the slightest doubt that a conspiracy to throw the Series existed, that the eight men identified as the conspirators were indeed plotting to do so, that they all accepted money from gamblers to do so...and they did indeed go out and lose.

There is not the slightest doubt that Joe Jackson was one of the conspirators, that he was completely aware that gamblers were paying players to throw the Series, nor is there any doubt that Jackson accepted money, $5000, for whatever part he played in the conspiracy, be it poor play or merely silence as to the crooked nature of the doings.

Read the book and then come back and defend Jackson if you wish. Until such time, I must class you as someone who has an incomplete understanding of the actual facts, with opinions rising from that incomplete understanding.

[AlexdeLarge]

Actually Grandstander, since you seem to know everything about everything I think I'll take your word for it, plus the fact that you were alive during that era.....I'll believe ya

[Zen653]

The jury at the back wages trial was unimpressed by his claims of having played to win

He hit .375 in the 1919 World Series with a homerun, two doubles and 6 RBI. These numbers were actually superior to his performance in the 1917 World Series - which the White Sox won, as you know - when he hit .304 with no extra base hits and no RBI. If he truly wanted to lose the World Series, he sure didn't play like it.

[Rapier]

Originally Posted by kflo

rose and jackson violated rule #1 in baseball. yes, worse than clemens and bonds, particularly in light of the era that they did it. there wasn't a giant sign on the front of every lockerroom saying don't do steroids. i do have less of a problem with jackson getting in than rose because he's dead.

BS! BS! BS! Rose deserves to be voted in and has for many many years. If you wanna asterisk his manager days fine.
He was Charlie hustle. One guy out of probably thousands pro sports guys who bet on their sports is singled out? That's just crapola.

[Rapier]

Originally Posted by AlexdeLarge

Should Pete Rose & Shoeless Joe Jackson be put in immediately?

I feel Pete didn't cause any harm to baseball (yeah he's stupid) but he only bet on his team to win, which in my eyes would only make him try harder to win!
In 1921, Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball due to his alleged involvement in the Black Sox scandal of 1919. But for nearly 90 years, fans have argued as to whether or not the White Sox legend truly deserves such a stiff penalty, especially when he was acquitted by a judge of any wrong doing.

You need about three or four more questions in your poll.

[Zen653]

I would agree with Rapier on this one had Rose not gambled on baseball games as a player. Had he only erred in judgment as a manager, then you could permanently ban him from the Hall as a manager, while admitting him as a player. But Pete Rose the player (and manager) compromised the integrity of the sport. He gambled on the Reds while he played and managed them. He also lied about it for decades. That's unforgivable. No sport should ever tolerate players, coaches or managers gambling on the game. Had he been honest and upfront about his impropriety from the beginning, then maybe I could understand suspending him from Hall consideration for 25 years, and then letting him get enshrined. But the lies and the cover-ups do not speak well of his credibility. As such, it's hard to believe him when he now says that he only gambled for his team to win. While I wouldn't go as far as banning him from attending games as a spectator, or even working as a spring training instructor/scout, he should never be welcomed into the Hall of Fame, and he should never be allowed back into the game as a coach, manager or team executive.

[Nat]

**** Pete Rose. His ego doesn't need any more stroking than it's already given itself over the years.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Zen653

He hit .375 in the 1919 World Series with a homerun, two doubles and 6 RBI. These numbers were actually superior to his performance in the 1917 World Series - which the White Sox won, as you know - when he hit .304 with no extra base hits and no RBI. If he truly wanted to lose the World Series, he sure didn't play like it.

It wasn't necessary that Jackson not play well during the series, nor is it any sort of fact that at anytime he wasn't playing his best. It is possible that he held back in critical moments and gave it the full effort when it wasn't going to alter the outcome of the game. For example, his one homerun was hit in the final game of the Series and the game was already a lost cause at that point.

Part of the confusion regarding performance stems from the fact that this was not a well organized and smooth running conspiracy. The bought off players all agreed that they had to throw the Series, but there was never a master plan regarding how it was to be done, nor which games would be lost and which games would be won. It was all improvised as it went along with the majority of the conspirators content to let Cicotte and Williams carry the burden of insuring a loss.

No one but Joe Jackson knows with certainty exactly what he did and did not do in that 1919 Series or how much real effort he was making and at what points he might have been letting up.

However, regardless of his performance, there is no doubt whatsoever that Jackson was in on the fix and accepted money for being part of it. There is no doubt that Jackson could have reported the scheme to management before the Series began, and he elected not to do so. There is no doubt that Jackson was completely aware of the crooked nature of the Series and that he was being paid to be a part of it.

[bigheadache]

I'm thinking a baseball Hall of Shame. It could include great players with questionable pasts. That way Pete, Joe, Barry and Roger could be in the Hall with Ty, Babe and Gaylord.