If Bonds & Clemens are voted into the HOF

[yh*]

Roger Clemens will get in soon enough, when two things happen:

1. Selig & Co. are proved to have known about steroids the entire time and having done nothing to stop it.
2. A player who is in the Hall is exposed as having used steroids. This will happen within the next 10 years, at most.

I think it will be longer before Barry Bonds gets in. Call me a pessimist, but I think that somehow, some way, a distinction will be drawn between Clemens and Bonds that allows Clemens into the Hall while Bonds continues to burn at the stake. Which will be an absolute travesty.

[LongtimeBravesFan]

Originally Posted by bigheadache

I'm thinking a baseball Hall of Shame. It could include great players with questionable pasts. That way Pete, Joe, Barry and Roger could be in the Hall with Ty, Babe and Gaylord.

Ruth may have been a carrouser but he wasn't a cheater like Perry, Clemmens or Bonds. He didn't fix or bet on games like Jackson and Rose. He wasn't a hateful racist (which is not against the law or rules of baseball) like Cobb. No way should he be included with that group. For that matter, Cobb shouldn't either, since he was merely a jerk. Bonds is a jerk but that isn't why I wanted to vomit when he hit #756.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by LongtimeBravesFan

Ruth may have been a carrouser but he wasn't a cheater like Perry, Clemmens or Bonds. He didn't fix or bet on games like Jackson and Rose. He wasn't a hateful racist (which is not against the law or rules of baseball) like Cobb. No way should he be included with that group. For that matter, Cobb shouldn't either, since he was merely a jerk. Bonds is a jerk but that isn't why I wanted to vomit when he hit #756.

There are better grounds for running Cobb out of the HoF than just his crappy personality and violent tendencies. Cobb and Tris Speaker were both hauled before Judge Landis in the mid twenties when it came to light that both had particpated in game fixing schemes for gamblers. Landis decided that the game would be hurt by having two mega stars such as these, kicked out of baseball, so he gave them a pass and covered up the charges. Both players were traded to new teams, both to the A's in fact, jamming that roster with Hall of Famers. (Cobb, Speaker, Grove, Cochrane, Simmons, Foxx)

[Rapier]

Originally Posted by Zen653

He also lied about it for decades. That's unforgivable. No sport should ever tolerate players, coaches or managers gambling on the game. Had he been honest and upfront about his impropriety from the beginning, then maybe I could understand suspending him from Hall consideration for 25 years, and then letting him get enshrined. But the lies and the cover-ups do not speak well of his credibility.

Why do you think a Pete Rose lie(s) is so dastardly and unforgivable? A 5 year ban would have certainly been appropriate and more importantly, FAIR. Pete has been Sport's scapegoat long enough.

[LongtimeBravesFan]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

There are better grounds for running Cobb out of the HoF than just his crappy personality and violent tendencies. Cobb and Tris Speaker were both hauled before Judge Landis in the mid twenties when it came to light that both had particpated in game fixing schemes for gamblers. Landis decided that the game would be hurt by having two mega stars such as these, kicked out of baseball, so he gave them a pass and covered up the charges. Both players were traded to new teams, both to the A's in fact, jamming that roster with Hall of Famers. (Cobb, Speaker, Grove, Cochrane, Simmons, Foxx)

I had forgotten about that when I typed my response. Yes, something shady seems to have been going on and Landis was a hypocrite for not dealing more harshly with Cobb and Speaker. But BHA seemed to be singling out Cobb for his personality defects and that was the point I was addressing.

Rapier-Had Rose admitted betting on the Reds while managing and then asked for forgiveness and gotten professional help for his gambling problem, he'd be in the Hall of Fame. Yet he lied and denied and didn't admit it until years had gone by.

[Rapier]

Originally Posted by LongtimeBravesFan

Rapier-Had Rose admitted betting on the Reds while managing and then asked for forgiveness and gotten professional help for his gambling problem, he'd be in the Hall of Fame. Yet he lied and denied and didn't admit it until years had gone by.

Come on. Prone or on his knees while asking for forgiveness? Will someone have to decide if he really, really means it?

Baseball justice, like all justice, should be swift and appropriate. Certainly not forever.

[AlexdeLarge]

So yh....is it a black/white thingie?

I think Mr, Cobb even killed someone if I'm not mistaken Glad you can kill a person and go to the HOF, but God forbid if you bet on your own team to win.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by AlexdeLarge

I think Mr, Cobb even killed someone if I'm not mistaken Glad you can kill a person and go to the HOF, but God forbid if you bet on your own team to win.

But he didn't place any bets...on baseball...wait, no...on his own team...wait a minute...only for them to win. Yeah, that's it...or is it?

[Simp]

Back when teams would get money for finishing in 2nd (maybe 3rd?) it was apparently a somewhat common practice near the end of the season for teams to reach an "agreement", when one was out of the money and the other was in the running, for the the former to do all it could to make sure the latter won. Cobb was involved in at least one of these scenarios(sp).

[Wiggen]

Originally Posted by bigheadache

I'm thinking a baseball Hall of Shame. It could include great players with questionable pasts. That way Pete, Joe, Barry and Roger could be in the Hall with Ty, Babe and Gaylord.

What was Babe Ruth's questionable past? That he drank whiskey and ran around with women? Hell, every player in baseball would be qualified for that.

[Simp]

What was Babe Ruth's questionable past?

Maybe the rumors he was part black?

[Zen653]

Why do you think a Pete Rose lie(s) is so dastardly and unforgivable?

As a player-manager, Rose gambled on games involving his team. The integrity of the sport is compromised when a player, coach or executive can engineer the outcome of games for his own pecuniary benefit. If left unchecked, such behavior would turn MLB into the WWE.

Had Rose only gambled on his team once, then I would agree that a shorter suspension would be appropriate. Baseball players are human beings and everyone deserves a second chance. But Rose repeatedly gambled on Reds games, and when confronted about his misconduct, lied about it. First he claimed that he had never gambled at all. Then he claimed he never gambled on baseball. Then he claimed he never gambled on the Reds. Then he claimed he only gambled on the Reds to win. There's a credibility problem here. Why should we believe that Rose only gambled for the Reds to win when he's already been caught lying several times before? Furthermore, even if he did only gamble on his team to win, that still affects the outcome of games. Perhaps he put his worst hitters into the game from the 7th inning on to preserve run differentials. Maybe he overworked pitchers in an effort to go all-out on nights where he had money on the line.

A 5 year suspension would have been appropriate only if this had been an isolated incident for Rose and only if he immediately admitted to the full extent of the offense. The long-term nature of the gambling, along with the decades of lying, make a permanent ban appropriate. Rose should never be in a position where he can again influence the outcome of games, nor should he be given the honor of Cooperstown enshrinement. I'd be willing to allow him back into baseball as a scout, or spring training instructor, nothing more.

Gambling in baseball is something that bothers me a lot because of the way it directly affects the outcomes of games. I would be very strict about all forms of baseball betting. My fellow Red Sox fans gave me a hard time over this, but I was disappointed that the league did not punish Jonathan Papelbon last year for making a bet with other Red Sox players about the closer's performance. The deal was that if Papelbon made it through April without surrendering a single run, he would have to shave his head into a mohawk. If he did give up a run, he could leave his hair the way he preferred it. Some people saw this as just a harmless and silly little bet. I saw it as a violation of the integrity of the sport. What if Papelbon had decided on April 30th to intentionally blow a save so that he wouldn't have to shave his head? Alternatively, what if he honestly blew the save that night but no one believed him? Either way, you'd at least have an appearance of impropriety and the team would potentially have one less victory as a result of it. If the Red Sox then missed the playoffs by one game, you could point to the Papelbon bet as the difference. As it turned out, Papelbon made it through April without giving up a run, and shaved his head into a mohawk. But I still would have punished him to send the message that the league will not condone any form of player gambling that affects the outcome of games, particularly when it involves a negative like striking out or giving up runs.

[Rapier]

Originally Posted by Zen653

AIR

I can't say if it was hot air but it was oh so tedious.



Pete Rose is no Alex Groza.



Alex Groza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Professional career

Groza was drafted in the 1st round of the 1949 NBA Draft by the Indianapolis Olympians. Groza averaged 22.5 points per game over two seasons before being implicated along with college teammates Ralph Beard and Dale Barnstable in a point shaving scandal during the 1948-49 season at Kentucky. NBA president Maurice Podoloff banned all of the implicated players from the league for life.
As a result of this ban, Groza became the first player in NBA history to end his career with a season in which he averaged at least 20 points per game (Groza averaged 21.7 PPG during the 1950-51). In NBA history, only three players have had higher scoring averages in their final NBA seasons: Bob Pettit (22.5 PPG in '64-65), Paul Arizin (21.9 PPG in '61-62), and Drazen Petrovic (22.3 PPG in '92-93).

[edit] Coaching career

After his playing career ended, Groza became the coach of Bellarmine University in Louisville, Kentucky. In 1963, Groza led the Knights to a Kentucky Intercolliegiate Athletic Conference title and was named KIAC coach of the year. Groza left Bellarmine in 1966 for a brief coaching and managerial career in the ABA. Between 1971 and 1975, Groza coached 40 games with the Kentucky Colonels and San Diego Conquistadors and held a number of front office positions including becoming the Kentucky Colonels' business manager in 1969 and general manager of the San Diego Conquistadors in 1972 (and, later, San Diego's head coach). Groza was 2-0 as coach of the Colonels but 15-23 as coach of the Conquistadors, putting his career coaching record at 17-23 [1].

[andreahall]

Everyone should go check out this video on bluecollarordie.com. I think it really says a lot about baseball and our youth.

Steroids & Baseball from The Blue Group

[djwhokid]

Originally Posted by yh*

Roger Clemens will get in soon enough, when two things happen:

1. Selig & Co. are proved to have known about steroids the entire time and having done nothing to stop it.
2. A player who is in the Hall is exposed as having used steroids. This will happen within the next 10 years, at most.

I think it will be longer before Barry Bonds gets in. Call me a pessimist, but I think that somehow, some way, a distinction will be drawn between Clemens and Bonds that allows Clemens into the Hall while Bonds continues to burn at the stake. Which will be an absolute travesty.

Here is the difference:

One is black and the other is white. Do you think it is a coincidence that the most hated ahletes in America is almost always a black man? Barry Bonds, Muhammad Ali, Pacman Jones, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, Latrell Sprewell, O.J. Simpson, Ron Artest, Kobe Bryant, etc..

Coincidence? I think not.

Let's be clear, Barry Bonds probably didn't do anything worse than what other players in MLB were doing. It just happened that Barry Bonds lab was the only one raided. That's the only difference.