Congrats to Gossage; why Raines only at 24%?

[Triad]

It's about time for the Goose. And unfortunately Tim Raines didn't get a gander, receiving only 24% of the votes. What the heck is wrong with the voters that they can't see Raines' worth? Are they blind? Are Expos not allowed in?

Jayson Stark pointed out that Raines reached base more times in his career than Tony Gwynn. Raines also scored 188 more runs than Gwynn. He had six 100-R seasons, while Gwynn had two.

I'm glad we've advanced to looking at more representative stats over the past few years, such as OPS, but it really gives the good baserunners the shaft. Maybe ten years from now, voters will have a more keen eye. Raines scored runs! Hello, McFly!

Career OBP:
Raines -- .385
Gwynn -- .388

Not a whole lot of difference there, plus considering that Raines was by far the superior baserunner, what he did after getting on base was more valuable.

[Zen653]

Are Expos not allowed in?

Gary Carter was enshrined as an Expo.

Unless Tim Raines eventually makes it in, or unless Vladimir Guerrero makes it in some day, I think Carter may end up as the lone Expo in Cooperstown.

In other HOF voting news, Jim Rice fell short by 16 votes. I think he'll eventually get into Cooperstown via the Veteran's Committee.

Why is it that players don't receive the same support from one year of eligibility to the next? How does someone go from being a non-HOFer one year to a HOFer ten years later? It's not as though the player's numbers suddenly changed.

[WilsonC]

I didn't think he'd make it in first try, but that is sinfully low for Raines.

On another note, there's actually somebody out there who thinks Shawon Dunston in a HoFer who gets the priviledge of voting for the HoF...

[DiamondDave]

Last I remember... unless you hit the HR... you score runs by SOMEONE ELSE KNOCKING YOU IN

Raines was nothing spectacular... very good, but not spectacular.... hence the less than spectacular vote numbers.... if he would make it in to the hall, THAT would be the travesty

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Zen653

Gary Carter was enshrined as an Expo.

Unless Tim Raines eventually makes it in, or unless Vladimir Guerrero makes it in some day, I think Carter may end up as the lone Expo in Cooperstown.

In other HOF voting news, Jim Rice fell short by 16 votes. I think he'll eventually get into Cooperstown via the Veteran's Committee.

Why is it that players don't receive the same support from one year of eligibility to the next? How does someone go from being a non-HOFer one year to a HOFer ten years later? It's not as though the player's numbers suddenly changed.

I agree. Even though it seems a little harsh for me to say, I don't get why players get so many chances to get in. I could understand in football's case, where only a certain amount of players can be inducted each year. However in baseball, the voters can vote for like 15 guys. And this is after waiting six years after a player's career has ended to consider their numbers/impact and such. I don't understand what the point of giving somebody 15 chances to get in... so guys have 14 years to lobby for your support? Either you're in or you're out.

And by the way, I think it's rediculous that voters try to send a "message" by putting certain guys in on their first ballot and others have to wait multiple years just because they weren't on the same level of HallofFame-ness. It sets a stupid precedent that ends up killing the support for a certain player.

[WilsonC]

Originally Posted by DiamondDave

Last I remember... unless you hit the HR... you score runs by SOMEONE ELSE KNOCKING YOU IN

And by the exact same token, unless you hit the HR, you need someone else on base to knock in those runs - and if that someone else is a good baserunner, it improves your chances of knocking him in. When it comes to increasing the opportunities for following hitters to drive in runs, Raines was one of the best.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Jay

I agree. Even though it seems a little harsh for me to say, I don't get why players get so many chances to get in. I could understand in football's case, where only a certain amount of players can be inducted each year. However in baseball, the voters can vote for like 15 guys. And this is after waiting six years after a player's career has ended to consider their numbers/impact and such. I don't understand what the point of giving somebody 15 chances to get in... so guys have 14 years to lobby for your support? Either you're in or you're out.

And by the way, I think it's rediculous that voters try to send a "message" by putting certain guys in on their first ballot and others have to wait multiple years just because they weren't on the same level of HallofFame-ness. It sets a stupid precedent that ends up killing the support for a certain player.

I affirm. What sort of honor would it really be if Jim Rice gets in next year in his last elligible vote? It's like telling the player that you are in Hall, but we held our noses and voted for you out of charity. A player's stats are not going to change once his career ends, so what is the big problem associated with figuring out whether or not he was a Hall of Famer? I mean, if 14 votes later the voters are still undecided about whether or not Rice was Hall worthy, then clearly he was not. Enshrining him now will only water down the standards employed for judging others....as in "Well, if Rice is in, how come Soandso isn't in?" Admitting marginal players opens the door for even lesser marginal players down the road.

I say abolish the Vets committee completely, there is no one left out there that clearly merits the honor who has not been so honored. At this point, you can only enshrine people who are less meritorious than those already in the Hall. And I say abolish the multi year voting rules. One time, one vote, in or out.

[DiamondDave]

Originally Posted by WilsonC

And by the exact same token, unless you hit the HR, you need someone else on base to knock in those runs - and if that someone else is a good baserunner, it improves your chances of knocking him in. When it comes to increasing the opportunities for following hitters to drive in runs, Raines was one of the best.

True... which is exactly why some super good players on teams with no support have had lesser run production numbers, even though their power numbers, OPS, avg, etc have been on par with the other greats....

[Zen653]

I say abolish the Vets committee completely, there is no one left out there that clearly merits the honor who has not been so honored. At this point, you can only enshrine people who are less meritorious than those already in the Hall. And I say abolish the multi year voting rules. One time, one vote, in or out.

I mostly agree, although there are cases where learning more about a particular era might legitimately change a voter's thinking on the merits of an individual player. For example, now that we know more about the prevalence of steroids during the 90s, it seems reasonable for voters to re-assess the Jim Rices and Andre Dawsons. But I think that sort of thing should be done by the Veteran's Committee, not the voters. I'd also limit Veteran's Committee selections to one person per 5 year cycle, so as to not encourage back door admission into the HOF.

Another idea I like is Bill Simmons' concept of a tiered Hall of Fame. There's a big difference between Babe Ruth/Ted Williams and Tony Perez/Bill Mazeroski. How about a gold room within the Hall of Fame for the truly greatest of the great?

[Triad]

The Veterans Committee needs to at least let Ron Santo in. He's better than over half of the 3rd basemen already in. Dick Allen deserves to be in as well.

Originally Posted by Jay

Even though it seems a little harsh for me to say, I don't get why players get so many chances to get in.

Just goes to show how political the process is.

Originally Posted by DiamondDave

Last I remember... unless you hit the HR... you score runs by SOMEONE ELSE KNOCKING YOU IN

Uh, Raines hit 35 more HR than Gwynn did...

If you think Lou Brock belongs in the HOF, then you've got to let Raines in too. Or even if you don't, but especially if you do.

[bedir than average]

The best news from this year's HoF voting is that I can now say I played catch with a Hall of Famer, even if I didn't know it at the time.

Back in 1994 a very good friend's father was the Equipment Manager for the Seattle Mariners. As a thank you to me for joining the Army he asked me to come down and shag balls for two long home stands in May and June.

It was a great time at 19 years old and really my introduction to sports. Nothing beats spring and summer in Seattle, except for maybe catching fly balls under a concrete roof on green painted concrete floors.

We set up out in right field in Jay Buhner's territory during Mariner batting practice. One thing that struck me were the three deep black/concrete looking stains on the AstroTurf where tobacco chewers spittle had eaten away the fake Turf.

The other thing that struck me was a guy as old as my father out with a young kid in centerfield. Across his back was the name Gossage, as on his son's back as well. He had paid for his son to have his name on his back. Once in a while the kid would overthrow dad and the ball would come bouncing my way. I'd throw it back.

Sometimes he'd just throw it to me as well. Maybe three dozens words were exchanged, and I didn't really know who Gossage was at the time, it would be 5 years later when I was out of the service and working in sports radio when the age of the gentleman made sense to me.

I've been rooting for Goose for some time, but oddly only for 20 games of his career

[Triad]

Originally Posted by bedir than average

The best news from this year's HoF voting is that I can now say I played catch with a Hall of Famer, even if I didn't know it at the time.

Back in 1994 a very good friend's father was the Equipment Manager for the Seattle Mariners. As a thank you to me for joining the Army he asked me to come down and shag balls for two long home stands in May and June.

It was a great time at 19 years old and really my introduction to sports. Nothing beats spring and summer in Seattle, except for maybe catching fly balls under a concrete roof on green painted concrete floors.

We set up out in right field in Jay Buhner's territory during Mariner batting practice. One thing that struck me were the three deep black/concrete looking stains on the AstroTurf where tobacco chewers spittle had eaten away the fake Turf.

The other thing that struck me was a guy as old as my father out with a young kid in centerfield. Across his back was the name Gossage, as on his son's back as well. He had paid for his son to have his name on his back. Once in a while the kid would overthrow dad and the ball would come bouncing my way. I'd throw it back.

Sometimes he'd just throw it to me as well. Maybe three dozens words were exchanged, and I didn't really know who Gossage was at the time, it would be 5 years later when I was out of the service and working in sports radio when the age of the gentleman made sense to me.

I've been rooting for Goose for some time, but oddly only for 20 games of his career

Nice story. Poor guy should've been in the Hall way before Sutter. If you went back to the '70s and '80s, and told somebody that Sutter would be more highly regarded than Gossage someday, they'd have looked at you really funny.

I remember sitting in the Kingdome in the back row of the lower deck, and not being able to see the flight of fly balls because the seats were so far back under the overhang. It was like watching a game from a cave. Believe it or not, my wife caught a 330-foot foul line drive in batting practice... barehanded. And she had her back to the plate, walking up some stairs when the ball was hit. She was about thirty feet away from me, and I yelled to her that one was coming, and she turned around and caught it against her hip while holding onto her jacket.

[Zen653]

my wife caught a 330-foot foul line drive in batting practice... barehanded. And she had her back to the plate, walking up some stairs when the ball was hit. She was about thirty feet away from me, and I yelled to her that one was coming, and she turned around and caught it against her hip while holding onto her jacket.

I regularly go to 10+ games per year and I've never caught a ball. Only once in a major league game did a ball even land in my section (about two rows behind me, several seats over.)

My closest shot at a foul ball was at a AAA game in Pawtucket. I was sitting in the front row along the first baseline and I missed a liner by only a couple of inches. I had my hands out below the middle railing, ready to clasp them around the ball, and the ball whizzed by right below them.

I hope that wasn't my one and only chance.

I did receive a game ball once at a Red Sox-Giants game this year. The umpire tossed a ball up to my daughter. That's not nearly the same as catching a ball directly off the bat, though. I'm just going to have to try a little harder.

[LongtimeBravesFan]

Tony Perez also played for the Expos and is in the HOF. Frank Robinson managed the Expos after being inducted. Also, Pete rose would have made it if he had not been banned from the game.

I have a higher standard for first ballot members, as I see them as an "inner circle" of players you automaticly think of as HOFers. There are players who would no get my vote the first year if there was even the tiniest debate about them.

[Zen653]

Tony Perez also played for the Expos and is in the HOF. Frank Robinson managed the Expos after being inducted. Also, Pete rose would have made it if he had not been banned from the game.

Lots of people who played for the Expos at some point in their careers are, or will be, in the Hall of Fame (Tony Perez, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Larry Walker, etc.) Only one player was actually inducted as an Expo (Gary Carter.)

Unless Guerrero makes it in as an Expo, or unless the voters change their minds about Raines, I think Carter may end up being the only one. It's a toss-up as to whether Dawson would go in as a Cub or Expo.