HoF: Ins & Outs, Memory Lane Walkaround

[nanwynnfan]

On the old boards and here there have been many interesting and thought-provoking threads on HoF memberships, qualifications, career stats, peaks, declines and myriad measurements offered in support of the Ins and the Outs from a "shoulda" point of view.

Up front, I am NOT picketing for these guys to get into the HoF, but rather to point out that, if we were to look at five year, seven, year, or some other peak period, these guys would fare much better than some others who have built a consituency of avid supporters.

I have been a fan since @ 1939 and I wanted to avoid including guys knocking on the door or just becoming eligible for votes, so I limited my span of players to those I saw playing, allowing for active careers started earlier but continuing into and through 1939 and beyond. It's basically players from 1930-1990. [I have one exception, Max Bishop, pretty much forgotten 2B for the old A's mini-dynasty, whose peak was 1925-1932, and whose OB% is astounding].

My own bias is to defend guys who make contact, get on base by average and/or batting eye discipline, move runners along and often fail to get headlines, especially IF they are not power hitters. Nothing against power either, but power + contact, for me = excellence.

I allowed myself a handful of "ringers," guys whose career peaks were very short, but for tragic reasons related to injury, illness, war interruption and our disability, etc. When military service interrupted a career, the player' name is preceeded by an *. When In injury terminated a career, # masrks the name. In the rare instances of BOTH being contributing factors, *# is the marker.

Bottom line here is that none of the men listed below is in the HoF; most are without a constituency of supporters; most will never get in; and the few that I let slip through [active beyond 1990 and newly eligible] will probably NOT get the required votes.

Before other marginal HoF applicants get votes, thes guys [or many of them] should come first.

By position[s]:

Name..................Peak Years.................RC/G, Peak Years [Eyeballed]

Catchers

Rudy York..........1937-44......................6.2
Ted Simmons......1973-80......................6.7
Smoky Burgess....1952-61......................6.0+
Walker Cooper.....1944-50......................6.0
Mickey Tettleton..1989-96......................6.5
Joe Torre............1963-71......................6.0

1B

Gil Hodges..........1950-57......................6.7+
Wally Joyner.......1989-98......................6.0+
Kent Hrbek..........1983-89.....................6.5+
#Dale Alexander...1929-33.....................7.4
Keith Hernandez...1979-87.....................7.0+
#Ferris Fain.........1947-55.....................6.0+
John Olerud.........1992-01.....................7.2+ [exception]
Will Clark.............1987-95.....................7.0+ [exce[tion]

2B

Lou Whitaker.......1983-92......................5.5+
Buddy Myer.........1930-38......................6.2+
Max Bishop..........1925-32......................5.4
Eddie Stanky........1944-51.....................5.5+
*Joe Gordon.........1938-48.....................6.0+

3B

#Harlond Clift.......1934-42......................6.5+
Darrell Evans........1972-79......................5.5+
Stan Hack............1935-43......................6.0+
Eddie Yost............1949-55......................5.5+
*Sid Gordon..........1946-53......................6.5+
Toby Harrah.........1975-82.......................6.0+
Bill Madlock...........1974-83......................6.0+

ADDED:

Buddy Lewis..........1937-46......................6.0+ [3b-OF]

SS

*#Cecil Travis.......1934-41......................6.0+
*Johnny Pesky.......1942-51......................5.5+
Vern Stephens.......1944-71......................6.0+

OF

Minnie Minoso........1952-61......................6.0+
*#Pete Reiser........1941-47......................6.5+
*Charlie Keller........1939-46......................8.0
*#Barney McCosky..1938-47......................6.5
Reggie Smith..........1970-78......................7.0+
*Dom DiMaggio.......1941-51......................5.5+
*Walt Judnich.........1940-46.....................6.0+
Bob Watson............1971-79.....................6.0+
Bob Elliott...............1944-51.....................6.0+
Bob Johnson............1935-42.....................7.0+
Dick Allen................1966-74.....................8.0+
Roy Cullenbine.........1941-46......................7.0+
Tim Raines..............1984-93......................7.0+
Bobby Murcer..........1971-78......................6.0+
Jim Rice..................1977-86......................6.0+
Harold Baines...........1984-93......................6.0+
Mike Hargrove..........1976-82......................6.5
Billy Goodman...........1949-57......................5.5
Elmer Valo...............1946-52......................6.0

[WilsonC]

Thank you for this list! There's some fine players here before my time that I know little-to-nothing about and had to look up, but who appear to have been very good players.

The one guy on this list who really stands out to me is Tim Raines. To me, Raines was a no-doubt HoF player, a fantastic player in his prime, an all-time-great baserunner and leadoff hitter, and had a long productive career. Without 3000 hits and with low HR totals for an outfielder, he'll not get the support he should, but he's not even borderline to me - he's easily above it.

One thing I notice here is a particular archtype of players that tends to be overlooked - that's the Keith Hernandez type - excellent fielding firstbasemen with very good contact skills and plate discipline, who were solid line-drive hitters with a lot of doubles and with HR totals between a a third to a half of the true sluggers of their era. Mark Grace is another who fits this mold well. I think there's a two-fold bias here: firstbase is considered a lower difficulty position, so those who excel defensively at it often aren't given the defensive credit they deserve, and it's considered a power position, so those who create their offense in a way with fewer HR often aren't given the credit they deserve.

For the Hall-of-Fame-Talents-That-Failed-To-Have-A-HoF-Career-Due-To-Injuries list, I'd need to include Eric Davis high on that list.

[Zen653]

For the Hall-of-Fame-Talents-That-Failed-To-Have-A-HoF-Career-Due-To-Injuries list, I'd need to include Eric Davis high on that list.

I would also add Tony Conigliaro, Bret Saberhagen and Nomar Garciaparra.

Conigliaro had already hit 124 homeruns by the time he had his breakout season of 1970, where he hit 36 homeruns at the age of 25. Had he continued on that trajectory of 30+ homeruns per year, he easily would have reached 500. And this was during the pre-steroid era. His career was cut short by a beanball to the head.

Saberhagen had phenomenal numbers in virtually every season of his major league career. The problem was that he rarely stayed healthy enough to last a full season. As a result, his career win total suffered. Give him 200+ IP a year, and he would have won at least 250 games with an ERA in the low 3's.

Garciaparra looked like a shoo-in for the Hall of Fame at one time but his power numbers inexplicably dipped each season and a chronic wrist injury eliminated his power completely, while also reducing his once-high batting average and throwing accuracy at shortstop. If not for a fateful Al Reyes pitch, and a suspicious injury in spring training of 2004 that reduced his fielding range, Garciaparra would have had a more impressive career than Derek Jeter.

[nanwynnfan]

Thanks for the comments so far. The discussion so far is just what I'd hoped for: a look back on some darn good players, many of whom are forgotten, but who deserved better.

Cecil Travis, for one, was a favorite of mine; and my childhood idol, Ted Williams, singled him out as a "natural hitter" with a sweet stroke. The Sporting News named Travis the best MLB SS in the years immediately preceeding WW II, although Travis also excelled defensively at 3B. After his .359 season, Travis lost 4 seasons to WW II; saw combat in the Battle of the Bulge and suffered frostbite in his toes [a story oft-debated but confirmed by the self-effacing Travis, who downplayed it]. He said that he'd suffered some frostbite, but added that he just couldn't seem to get back into competitive shape after four years away. It was those two disastrous post-War seasons that screwed him out of HoF consideration.

Dale Alexander suffered gangrenous complications after a godawful diathermy incident that shot his career - dead in the water. He got some bad press because his power numbers had dropped off after two seasons; but he hadn't "forgotten how to hit" as some said, as his average an on base % indicate.

Pete Reiser was a big NYC favorite as a kid with Brooklyn, a high average, tremendous hustle and fearless defensive OF seen as right up there with Joe DiMaggio. Reiser became famous for crashing into walls making catches; and his injuries PLUS lost time to WW II washed up his career all too soon. Reiser was one of the pioneer reasons the warning track was introduced.

I'd love to see some posters come up with names I'm sure I overlooked. [Like Buddy Lewis, just now added to list - lost years to WW II, won Distinguished Flying Cross for missions over 'the Hump," in the China-Burma-India Theatre of Operation.

[Zen653]

Nan, what are your thoughts on Mel Parnell? In 10 major league seasons, all with the Boston Red Sox, and mostly for very bad teams, he won 123 games and compiled an ERA of 3.50. In 8 of the 10 years (which also matched up with his full seasons of work), he never posted an ERA higher than 3.80. His 1949 season was particularly strong, tossing nearly 300 innings for a career-best ERA of 2.77. That must be one of the all-time best seasons for a pitcher of that period. His high workload from 1948-1953 probably cut his career short, as he was unable to pitch for a full year during his last three seasons, and he retired at 34.

[nanwynnfan]

Zen, thanks for the question. Right now I'm outlining a new thread focusing only on pitchers not in the HoF [and not likely ever to get there]; and give me the weekend to wrap it up. I should be able to respond by Monday.

[WilsonC]

This looks like a good opportunity to throw some greats from across the pacific into the mix. There's a few who I think would easilly be HoF players had they played in MLB. Whether or not the HoF should consider internationallizing its membership is another discusion altogether - for this thread I'm more interested in recognizing some of the better players in the Japanese league's history as opposed to debating their HoF merit.

Most of my information is based on the research of Jim Albright The Baseball Guru - Jim Albright's Baseball Page2

Sadaharu Oh: Easily the most recognized Japanese legend (aside from active Major Leaguers at least), as well as the greatest player in Japanese baseball history. In addition to being Japan's homerun king with an astonishing 868 HR, Oh was a .301 hitter with outstanding plate discipline, managing a .446 OBP over his career. He was also a fine fielding firstbaseman, as a perenial Gold Glove winner after the institution of the award (though I'm not sure if fame/hitting holds affects the voting for these in Japan as it often does here). After his playing career, he's had a successful managerial career.

Oh had a very unique batting style, where he balanced on his back leg waiting for the pitch. As odd as it may have appeared, it helped him achieve a fundimentally excellent swing, forcing him to have a still bat before the swing with tremendous weight transfer that helped him generate his power, and the results speak for themselves.

It's difficult to come up with a good North American comparisson for Oh. His power would have taken a dip in MLB due to the larger parks. It's unlikely he would have been close to Aaron, but I suspect he'd have been comfortably over 500 HR. Coupled with his durability, his consistency, his defense, and his plate discipline, I'm comfortable saying he'd have had a HoF career had he gotten the opportunity to play over here, with a conservative estimate putting him in the Eddie Murray range.

Shigeo Nagashima: Oh's teammate, and a tremendously popular player. While not on the level as Oh's dominance, Nagashima was one of the finest all around players in Japanese history - he hit for average and power, had speed, and was considered a terrific fielding thirdbaseman. Nagashima was also percieved as an exceptional clutch performer. Oh and Nagashma were roughly the Japanese equivalent of Ruth and Gehrig - two of the top hitters in the league's history forming the most feared heart-of-the-order in Japanese history.

The MLB player I'd probably compare him to would be Ron Santo. He wouldn't have been as dominant as he was in Japan, but with his balance skillset he'd have been very good at a number of things, offensively and defensively.

Katsuya Nomura: While his power put him second to Oh in HR in Japan, Nomura was perhaps most impressive for his durability. He was a catcher who very rarely missed a game, often catching both ends of a doubleheader. Over his career, he caught almost 3000 games. Defensively, I don't get the impression he was spectacular - his arm was certainly not anywhere near Bench - but rather that he was a capable defender - a smart catcher who didn't make many mistakes.

I suppose he could be compared to Fisk, in that he was a durable, power hitting catcher with a long career. It's hard to say what he'd have done over here. As long as he could handle the position defensively, he may very well have been the best catcher in Baseball between Berra and Bench. He would have been given more rest, of course, so who knows how that would have affected his performance.

Isao Harimoto: A slugging outfielder who hit .319 with over 500 HR and the only player with over 3000 Hits in Japan. He could certainly hit, and he could run quite well, and he had a long career. I haven't found much about his defensive capabilities, so I'm not sure how he'd rate there.

He wasn't the true power hitter that Oh or Nomura was, but rather a solid hitter with 20-30 HR power. Because of this, I'd expect he'd see a significant drop in his HR, becoming more of a contact hitter with a bunch of doubles and about 15 HR a year. He probably would have had a good chance at 3000 hits over here as well, given the longer seasons.

I'll take a look at some pitchers, too, in the other thread.

[nanwynnfan]

"Oh had a very unique batting style, where he balanced on his back leg waiting for the pitch. As odd as it may have appeared, it helped him achieve a fundimentally excellent swing, forcing him to have a still bat before the swing with tremendous weight transfer that helped him generate his power, and the results speak for themselves."

Oh certainly deserves the credit you suggest. While his stance was unusual, it was very like Mel Ott's forward leg kick, as if he were a pitcher shoving off the rubber with his back foot.

[WilsonC]

I've heard the comparisson to Ott as well. From my understanding, their swings were aesthetically similar, with a similar raised leg kick and the weight transfer. If I'm not mistaken, they differed in that Ott had a high leg kick that was a part of his swing, whereas Oh actually balanced in a flamingo potition as the pitch was coming in.

Oh has an autobiography that's a very good read, too - Sadaharu On: A Zen Way of Baseball.

[nanwynnfan]

Yep. Oh had that hesitation that so many Japanese pitchers also exhibit in their windups. Ott almost reflected the leg kick of the pitcher just at the instant of the pitcher's release, so it was smooth and fluid.

[WilsonC]

On the topic of Japanese players, it's worth taking a look at Ichiro. Now, I'm sure he'll be a Hall of Famer anyways, but looking at his career on both sides of the Pacifc, he actually has a chance to challenge Rose's hits record unofficially. He's currently at 2870 at age 33 - considerably ahead of Rose's pace and coming off a 238 hit season, with no warning signs yet of decline. What makes that even more impressive is that he would likely have had more hits if he'd been able to start his career in MLB rather than in Japan.

His first full year in Japan, at age 20, he hit .385/.445/.549, and his last year there he hit .387/.460/.539. Between those two years, his BA were .342, .356, .345, .358, and .343. Compare that to MLB, he hit .350/.381/.457 his first year, .351/.396/.431 in his most recent year, and .321, .312, .372, .303, and .322 in between. The slightly lower batting average in MLB is expected, but in terms of ability, he's been the same player since he's been 20, and his hits totals in MLB have been higher, mostly due to the longer schedule, but also because his walk rates in Japan were higher.

If he'd gotten a chance to play over here from the time he was an MLB-level player, by simply applying the conversions of how his actual performance has changed from his time in Japan he'd be sitting between 3100 and 3200 hits already, after his age 33 season! He's really a rather unique player.

[Triad]

The ones I think should be in the HOF are highlighted in bold. I've added a few that weren't on the list, and listed them in green.

Name..................Peak Years.................RC/G, Peak Years [Eyeballed]

Catchers

Rudy York..........1937-44......................6.2
Ted Simmons......1973-80......................6.7
Smoky Burgess....1952-61......................6.0+
Walker Cooper.....1944-50......................6.0
Mickey Tettleton..1989-96......................6.5
Joe Torre............1963-71......................6.0
Thurman Munson
Bill Freehan
Lance Parrish

1B

Gil Hodges..........1950-57......................6.7+
Wally Joyner.......1989-98......................6.0+
Kent Hrbek..........1983-89.....................6.5+
#Dale Alexander...1929-33.....................7.4
Keith Hernandez...1979-87.....................7.0+ (probably the greatest fielding 1st baseman ever as well)
#Ferris Fain.........1947-55.....................6.0+
John Olerud.........1992-01.....................7.2+ [exception]
Will Clark.............1987-95.....................7.0+ [exce[tion]
Mark McGwire
Jeff Bagwell
Don Mattingly
Steve Garvey
Fred McGriff

2B

Lou Whitaker.......1983-92......................5.5+
Buddy Myer.........1930-38......................6.2+
Max Bishop..........1925-32......................5.4
Eddie Stanky........1944-51.....................5.5+
*Joe Gordon.........1938-48.....................6.0+
Bobby Grich
Roberto Alomar
Willie Randolph

3B

#Harlond Clift.......1934-42......................6.5+
Darrell Evans........1972-79......................5.5+
Stan Hack............1935-43......................6.0+
Eddie Yost............1949-55......................5.5+
*Sid Gordon..........1946-53......................6.5+
Toby Harrah.........1975-82.......................6.0+
Bill Madlock...........1974-83......................6.0+
Buddy Lewis..........1937-46......................6.0+ [3b-OF]
Ron Santo
Ken Boyer
Sal Bando
Matt Williams
Buddy Bell
Graig Nettles
Ron Cey
Bob Elliott

SS

*#Cecil Travis.......1934-41......................6.0+
*Johnny Pesky.......1942-51......................5.5+
Vern Stephens.......1944-71......................6.0+
Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Jim Fregosi
Bill Dahlen
Dave Concepcion
Bert Campaneris

OF

(LF) Minnie Minoso........1952-61......................6.0+
*#Pete Reiser........1941-47......................6.5+ (you can't be serious about Reiser -- he played only four full seasons)
(LF) *Charlie Keller........1939-46......................8.0
*#Barney McCosky..1938-47......................6.5 (McCosky had only two seasons of 120 OPS+ or more)
(CF) Reggie Smith..........1970-78......................7.0+
(CF) *Dom DiMaggio.......1941-51......................5.5+
*Walt Judnich.........1940-46.....................6.0+
(LF) Bob Watson............1971-79.....................6.0+
(3B) Bob Elliott...............1944-51.....................6.0+ (Elliott was a 3rd baseman)
(LF) Bob Johnson............1935-42.....................7.0+
(1B) Dick Allen................1966-74.....................8.0+ (Allen was a 1B and 3B)
Roy Cullenbine.........1941-46......................7.0+
(LF) Tim Raines..............1984-93......................7.0+
(CF) Bobby Murcer..........1971-78......................6.0+
(LF) Jim Rice..................1977-86......................6.0+
(RF) Harold Baines...........1984-93......................6.0+
(1B) Mike Hargrove..........1976-82......................6.5 (Hargrove was a 1st baseman)
Billy Goodman...........1949-57......................5.5
Elmer Valo...............1946-52......................6.0

It may be best to separate these into their actual outfield positions, since center field is quite distinct from the other two, and carries quite a bit more defensive value...

LF
Pete Rose
Joe Jackson

CF
Dale Murphy
Vada Pinson
Andre Dawson
Jim Wynn
Al Oliver
Bernie Williams
Cesar Cedeno
Wally Berger

RF
Dwight Evans
Bobby Bonds
Rocky Colavito
Tony Oliva
Dave Parker
Joe Carter
Albert Belle
Ken Singleton
Larry Walker
Juan Gonzalez

[nanwynnfan]

Triad:

Your rather gratuitous dismissal of McCosky and Reiser suggests to me that, perhaps you didn't even read my post before being so ready to respond. to witt:

[I wrote]:

"Up front, I am NOT picketing for these guys to get into the HoF, but rather to point out that, if we were to look at five year, seven, year, or some other peak period, these guys would fare much better than some others who have built a consituency of avid supporters."

.... and,


"I allowed myself a handful of "ringers," guys whose career peaks were very short, but for tragic reasons related to injury, illness, war interruption and our disability, etc. When military service interrupted a career, the player' name is preceeded by an *. When In injury terminated a career, # masrks the name. In the rare instances of BOTH being contributing factors, *# is the marker."

Injured guys and guys who lose 40% of what qualifies for full vesting in MLB pension funds, to me, is a huge SACRIFICE made by guys who, when they played, displayed defense and batting talents>many in the HoF not so impeded.

I know full well that Bob Elliott played 3B; but YOU seem to overlook the fact that he began his MLB career as an OF, playing all 3 positions. I attempted to put players at the positions where I thought their comps MIGHT look better.

Similarly, Dick Allen [who's not going to get in] played some OF; and with guys already in and guys like Hernandez knocking on the door, I tossed him in where I thought his chances would be better.

Hargrove I just screwed up - I know he played 1B, but it's a position where he'd have NO chance to get in, so I "cheated" - tossing him into the OF pile where he did play some.

If you're going to challenge condescendingly, at least do the courtesy of reading the poster's context FIRST.

[WilsonC]

The intention of this thread strikes me more as a "These are guys to remember, regardless of their HoF merit" thread, as opposed to advocating anyone in particular. Almost no one would advocate someone like Reiser for the HoF, but plenty of people would advocate him as a HoF talent who didn't have the career he could have, had he been healthy. I see a thread like this as an opportunity for people to learn about players they may not know much about, whether they're lesser known HoF-level talents, underrated guys who deserve more recognition, or even just pretty good players that someone has fond memories of.

[nanwynnfan]

"Almost no one would advocate someone like Reiser for the HoF, but plenty of people would advocate him as a HoF talent who didn't have the career he could have, had he been healthy. I see a thread like this as an opportunity for people to learn about players they may not know much about, whether they're lesser known HoF-level talents, underrated guys who deserve more recognition, or even just pretty good players that someone has fond memories of."



Thank you, Wilson C, for seeing EXACTLY the purpose of the thread.