The Mark McGwire Decision

[LouGehrig]

I have read a few articles in the main stream media that have brought up andro. The reason is probably that he had admitted using it, and since nothing with respect to steroid use has been proven, the use of andro is presented as McGwire using a performance enhancing drug.

Also, the study, commissioned yesterday with respect to andro and testosterone is of great significance, since the attempt will be made to discover if using andro to increase testosterone levels and muscle mass actually can increase levels of performance.

If using andro DOES that, then they will re-examine McGwire's records, despite the fact that they cannot do anything about it since it was legal when he used it.

The fact that some sports ban it is important, and depending on the research results, it may be banned from baseball.

Then we can have a real asterisk next to McGwire's record.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by LouGehrig

Then we can have a real asterisk next to McGwire's record.

What record? And what exactly would this asterisk mean?

[kflo]

Originally Posted by LouGehrig

I have read a few articles in the main stream media that have brought up andro. The reason is probably that he had admitted using it, and since nothing with respect to steroid use has been proven, the use of andro is presented as McGwire using a performance enhancing drug.

Also, the study, commissioned yesterday with respect to andro and testosterone is of great significance, since the attempt will be made to discover if using andro to increase testosterone levels and muscle mass actually can increase levels of performance.

If using andro DOES that, then they will re-examine McGwire's records, despite the fact that they cannot do anything about it since it was legal when he used it.

The fact that some sports ban it is important, and depending on the research results, it may be banned from baseball.

Then we can have a real asterisk next to McGwire's record.

you're just off base here. andro is not in dispute. he used it, it was legal by any standard. it was subsequently banned by baseball. it's not an issue. it can be viewed no differently than guys using creatine (and most do). it was a legal, not banned supplement. no studies on andro will change it's status in 1998. this is not about andro, at all.

the question with mcgwire now is solely about illegal steroids and performance enhancing drugs. that's the stain on him and what he needs to address.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by LouGehrig

I have read a few articles in the main stream media that have brought up andro. The reason is probably that he had admitted using it, and since nothing with respect to steroid use has been proven, the use of andro is presented as McGwire using a performance enhancing drug.

Also, the study, commissioned yesterday with respect to andro and testosterone is of great significance, since the attempt will be made to discover if using andro to increase testosterone levels and muscle mass actually can increase levels of performance.

If using andro DOES that, then they will re-examine McGwire's records, despite the fact that they cannot do anything about it since it was legal when he used it.

The fact that some sports ban it is important, and depending on the research results, it may be banned from baseball.

Then we can have a real asterisk next to McGwire's record.

you're just off base here. andro is not in dispute. he used it, it was legal by any standard. it was subsequently banned by baseball. it's not an issue. it can be viewed no differently than guys using creatine (and most do). it was a legal, not banned supplement. no studies on andro will change it's status in 1998. this is not about andro, at all.

the question with mcgwire now is solely about illegal steroids and performance enhancing drugs. that's the stain on him and what he needs to address.

[nanwynnfan]

Since McGwire is being considered on this thread foe HoF credentials now, we're talking about a first-ballot HoF qualifier.

We tend to stereotype position-by-position performance expectations; and given that, 1B is increasingly seen as a power position, with desfense relegated to a very secondary weighting. However, it's worth noting that McGwire was a solid defender much of his career; and counting GG Awards is a farce.

Fooling around with stats other than the obvious (HR, RBI) I looked at 15 1B from over the last 50 years, including more than a few known for their physical size and power and a few less so noted but often mentioned in "should he be in the Hof?"-type discussions. In the bunch are two guys who are in the HoF; the rest are not. I cut off the list @ 2000, so no active players are included.

Player............Career OB%........Career SLG.....Yrs>250TB.....Yrs>300TB

Hernandez........... .384............. .436............... 5.............. 1
Mattingly............ .358............. .471............... 7.............. 5
Murray............... .359............. .476............... 12.............. 4
Joyner................ .362............ .440............... 4.............. 0
J. Clark............... .379............ .476............... 4.............. 1
McGriff................ .377............ .509.............. 14.............. 2
Grace.................. .383............. .442............... 6.............. 0
Galarraga............. .347............. .499............... 8.............. 4
Bagwell................ .408............. .540.............. 12.............. 8
Palmeiro............... .371............. .515.............. 14.............. 9
Olerud................. .398............. .465.............. 6.............. 2
Hodges................ .359............. .487.............. 9.............. 2
Killebrew.............. .376............. .509.............. 9.............. 6
F. Howard............ .352............. .499.............. 6.............. 3
McGwire.............. .394............. .588.............. 8.............. 5

The reason I looked at these stats is a combination of factors:

-TB/season, career gives immediate information on how sound the player was for full-time play throughout his career; and 250 TB is very solid production, while 300 TB seasons gets you into rarefied air;

-IMO OB% is an enhancement to SLG, based largely on a bias that expects increased OB% due to power ferar factor on pitchers, the expectation being the more awesome the hitting threat [OR, the greater the combined discipline+power] the higher the OB%/SLG combo.

From the above, I can see McGwire in the HoF but not on the first ballot.

[WilsonC]

On a strictly performance-based evaluation, the only reasonable argument I can see against him is his durability. His career averages and peak seasons are well above the standards of the HoF. I could, however, see a case being made that he was injured enough that he simply wasn't dependable enough over the prime of his career to be a HoFer, despite his excellence while in the lineup, and cetainly his total games played are a bit on the low side for a HoFer.

I'd vote for him, though. He had enough dominant and very good seasons that it feels like it's reaching to use that as a rationale. With guys like Puckett and Koufax as a precedent, his dominance easily outways any flaws in his performance record.

[GerryInCS]

Here's hoping that next year Goose Gossage finally makes it into the HoF. Only 21 shy this time around.

[got_rings_26_1998_1999_00]

There is no doubt in my mind that most baseball fans would vote big mac into the hall of fame. The politics of the Hall of fame is a joke anyway.
Who picks these non players to vote anyway. The fans speaksand there is no way these voters should also be Judges.

Marks Stats put him in bottom line.

[bedir than average]

got rings, let's see what the fans here think.

I voted no. He's a glorified Dave Kingman in my books, and played in an even better offensive era with a cloud over his records. So I'm a big never.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by bedir than average

got rings, let's see what the fans here think.

I voted no. He's a glorified Dave Kingman in my books, and played in an even better offensive era with a cloud over his records. So I'm a big never.

Except of coure that Dave Kingman wasn't a very good player, while Mark McGwire was a great player. McGwire was better than Kingman at everything. By a wide margin. I mean, they're not even close.

Saying "Mark McGwire is a glorified Dave Kingman" is like saying "Ozzie Smith was a glorified Mario Mendoza" or "Tom Seaver was a glorified David Clyde."

[bedir than average]

at what skills did McGwire perform so much better than Kingman that aren't related to McGwire's post injury spike?

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by bedir than average

at what skills did McGwire perform so much better than Kingman that aren't related to McGwire's post injury spike?

Would you mind explaining why you want to exclude McGwire's best seasons? If he cheated - which we don't have any actual EVIDENCE of - that's one issue, but if we're discussing who the better player was isn't it kind of stupid to exclude his best years? I can prove Kelly Gruber was a better player than Mike Schmidt if you'd just let me exclude enough of Schmidt's career.

But you know what? Even if we exclude 1996 onwards, McGwire was STILL a better player than Dave Kingman. He was an above average offensive player every year, even the year he hit .201. Even adjusting for league, he got on base far more than Kingman - which pretty much seals it right there - hit for just as much power, and was a competent defensive player where Kingman was one of the worst fielders in modern major league history. This is a guy of whom it was once said, "The ball fell among Dave Kingman."

Of course, if we include his best years, McGwire was as far ahead of Dave Kingman was Mike Schmidt was ahead of Kelly Gruber. So it still comes down to whether or not he cheated. I'm waiting for the evidence he did.

[ingagi]

*I say Yes, make him wait a while in the penalty box. He was better than Kong, though I was actually a fan of Sky King there for what it's worth.

[bedir than average]

RickJay, considering McGwire was known to use a substance banned by other major sports - NFL, FIFA, Olympics - during his post-injury rapidly inflated stats and their is an easy suspiscion of even more toxic substances, yes I will discount those years.

Unless you have a better explanation of how a player in clear and distinct injury plagued decline happened to get better during his past peak age?

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by bedir than average

RickJay, considering McGwire was known to use a substance banned by other major sports

If McGwire played in the NFL, Olympics or FIFA, that would be relevant. He didn't, so it's not relevant at all. Cheating means you do something that's against the rules. It wasn't against the rules by any standard.

Unless you have a better explanation of how a player in clear and distinct injury plagued decline happened to get better during his past peak age?

He got more patient at the plate? More strength training made him healthier? He took andro? Who knows? Maybe he cheated, and maybe he didn't. We know for a fact that he DID use a supplement, andro, that

A) Could explain him getting back into the lineup and increased power, and
B) Was not against the rules, no matter what you think of it.

Until you have some evidence he cheated it's absurd to pretend that you do, and even more absurd to compare him to Dave Kingman; why not just accuse Roger Clemens if using steroids and say he's a glorified Jim Clancy? For that matter, do you KNOW for a fact that Mickey Mantle didn't cheat? What about Ted Williams? Hank Aaron?

In point of fact, you don't know for sure that any given major league ballplayer wasn't a cheat, unless you yourself are a major league ballplayer and didn't cheat, in which case you'd be sure about exactly one major leaguer. The difference between McGwire and anyone else pretty much boils down to two facts: one, he used a supplement, andro, that was banned after he retired and so doesn't have any bearing on whether or not he cheated; and two, that he did a terrible job of testifying before Congress, which doesn't prove a thing.