Did the Marlins lay down?

jtur88 · September 29th, 2007, 11:49 AM

Saturday against the Mets, starting a pitcher wih 15 career innings and a ERA near 7?

Grandstander · September 29th, 2007, 12:17 PM

That is speculation which assumes a theory of obligation for the Marlins to do anything other than what is in the best interests of the Marlins. They need not be concerned with who wins between the Mets and Phillies, they only need to concern themselves with their own club and their own players. If they wanted the chance to see how their 23 year old prospect performed at the big level, why should they not pursue that simply because of the Mets or the Phillies' concerns?

The Mets caught a break in that it appears the pitcher isn't ready for ths show just yet, but that's all it is, a break for the Mets, not a conspiracy against the Phillies.

bravescynic · September 29th, 2007, 05:15 PM

Please. When theres a pennant race on the line the teams should be throwing there best out there not garbage.

bedir than average · September 29th, 2007, 05:37 PM

Why? Why shouldn't any team ever do what is best for the team both this year and in the future?

jtur88 · September 29th, 2007, 07:14 PM

Baseball fans have a right to expect that a team will will try to win a game that has ramifications for the final outcome of the season.. If they perceive otherwise, it can have vry negative repercussions, like when Steve Brye let a ball drop on the last day of the year so Brett would win the batting title instead of McRae.

Tha Cardinals, ,running fumes withut a day off since mid August, could have very eaisly just forfeited the makeup game against the Mets Thursday---which clearly would have been in the best interests of the team. In fact, several weeks ago when they had to fly two nights in a row and give up their only remaining open date, they could have forreited againt the Cubs, and actually had a chance to regroup and get their wind, and they were still in the race at that time. As a result of that draconian travel schedule, the Cards barely won a game since that Cub game. So in that case, forfeiting could very well have been in their best interests, both in terms of the risk of injury, and being fresh enough to win a few more games to maybe salvage their chances for the year. But they didn't for a very obvious reason---the integrity of a game that you are expected to play to win. At least until the outcome of the game is meaningless to BOTH beams.

Grandstander · September 29th, 2007, 09:01 PM

There was no certainty regarding how well or how poorly the guy was going to pitch. The Marlins were under no obligation to treat this as any different from any other game. If they had used a front line starter who had only given up one run, they still would have lost today.

jtur88 · September 29th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grandstander

There was no certainty regarding how well or how poorly the guy was going to pitch. The Marlins were under no obligation to treat this as any different from any other game. If they had used a front line starter who had only given up one run, they still would have lost today.

How it turned out is not relevant to the question. The point is, they elected to use a pitcher with no MLB track record to speak of, whom they certainly would not have used if winning the game had any importance to their own fortunes, so their lineup choice revealed that they did not place importance on winning, but rather on some other factor. In that sense, they DID treat it as different from any other game.

Grandstander · September 29th, 2007, 11:00 PM

How it turned out is not relevant to the question.
How it turned out is all that really counts. What's irrelevant is your question.

jtur88 · September 30th, 2007, 05:14 PM

Outcomes of games do not affect the integrity of the game. The way they are played does.

bedir than average · September 30th, 2007, 05:16 PM

So you object to every incident of a pitcher without significant major league appearences starting a game?

Grandstander · September 30th, 2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtur88

Outcomes of games do not affect the integrity of the game. The way they are played does.

There is no integrity violation here. The Marlins were under no obligation to favor the Phillies over the Mets by adjusting their pitching plans. Nor was starting that particular pitcher some unprecedented sort of thing. Their obligations included fielding a team from their roster and having those selected to play, doing their best to win.

That's all. Their lineup need not be dictated by the needs of any other club.

What exactly do you see as the extent of your reasoning here? What if the Nationals, on that same day, decided to start a call up pitcher of the same caliber against Philadelphia? Then would Florida have been okay starting their rookie or would they still be sinning by not going with a more established hurler? Were the Marlins supposed to try and gauge exactly how powerful the Nationals lineup was and match that with one of their own against the Mets?

Do you see the flaw in your thinking? You are beginning with the premise that the Marlins have an interest in the outcome of the race between NY and the Phillies. They don't.

This is all in your head.

LongtimeBravesFan · September 30th, 2007, 06:12 PM

Tom Glavine is headed to Cooperstown. He didn't do any better than the Marlins starter in question.

jtur88 · September 30th, 2007, 07:08 PM

The integrity of baseball, like the integrity of almost anything else, is based to fairly large extend on perceptions and apearances. Basebal fans can be very fickle, as the post-strike years showed. It would not be unreasonable for the fans to sense that the Marlins, by their pitcher choice, did not place as high a value on winning the game as its importance in the pennant race might have warranted. I have neither stated nor implied any more than that.

Quite frankly, I am getting more and more fed up with MLB's contempt for the fans and what fans think or desire of the game.

unsung · October 1st, 2007, 04:12 AM

Yeah the Marlins did just that.

They swept the Cubs and took two of three from the Mets to end the season. Sounds just like a dive to me. Not to mention the game they did lose they were almost no-hit.

September 29th, 2007, 11:49 AM	#1 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	Did the Marlins lay down? Saturday against the Mets, starting a pitcher wih 15 career innings and a ERA near 7? __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much.

September 29th, 2007, 05:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
bedir than average Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Starbucks Posts: 8,258	Why? Why shouldn't any team ever do what is best for the team both this year and in the future? __________________ I'm sorry I left for a while. I needed a vaction, and then work changed substantially. I'm over 50 hour weeks, plus two hours a day of commuting time. A few weeks ago I launched my own blog about Seattle Sounders FC and Life in Puget Sound. I won't be by these parts often as my focus has changed. Sorry about the unannounced retirement.

September 29th, 2007, 07:14 PM	#5 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	Baseball fans have a right to expect that a team will will try to win a game that has ramifications for the final outcome of the season.. If they perceive otherwise, it can have vry negative repercussions, like when Steve Brye let a ball drop on the last day of the year so Brett would win the batting title instead of McRae. Tha Cardinals, ,running fumes withut a day off since mid August, could have very eaisly just forfeited the makeup game against the Mets Thursday---which clearly would have been in the best interests of the team. In fact, several weeks ago when they had to fly two nights in a row and give up their only remaining open date, they could have forreited againt the Cubs, and actually had a chance to regroup and get their wind, and they were still in the race at that time. As a result of that draconian travel schedule, the Cards barely won a game since that Cub game. So in that case, forfeiting could very well have been in their best interests, both in terms of the risk of injury, and being fresh enough to win a few more games to maybe salvage their chances for the year. But they didn't for a very obvious reason---the integrity of a game that you are expected to play to win. At least until the outcome of the game is meaningless to BOTH beams. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much. Last edited by jtur88; September 29th, 2007 at 07:16 PM.

September 30th, 2007, 05:14 PM	#9 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	Outcomes of games do not affect the integrity of the game. The way they are played does. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much.

September 30th, 2007, 05:16 PM	#10 (permalink)
bedir than average Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Starbucks Posts: 8,258	So you object to every incident of a pitcher without significant major league appearences starting a game? __________________ I'm sorry I left for a while. I needed a vaction, and then work changed substantially. I'm over 50 hour weeks, plus two hours a day of commuting time. A few weeks ago I launched my own blog about Seattle Sounders FC and Life in Puget Sound. I won't be by these parts often as my focus has changed. Sorry about the unannounced retirement.

September 29th, 2007, 12:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Grandstander Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Northern California Posts: 6,611	That is speculation which assumes a theory of obligation for the Marlins to do anything other than what is in the best interests of the Marlins. They need not be concerned with who wins between the Mets and Phillies, they only need to concern themselves with their own club and their own players. If they wanted the chance to see how their 23 year old prospect performed at the big level, why should they not pursue that simply because of the Mets or the Phillies' concerns? The Mets caught a break in that it appears the pitcher isn't ready for ths show just yet, but that's all it is, a break for the Mets, not a conspiracy against the Phillies.

September 29th, 2007, 05:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
bravescynic Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 58	Please. When theres a pennant race on the line the teams should be throwing there best out there not garbage.

September 29th, 2007, 09:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Grandstander Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Northern California Posts: 6,611	There was no certainty regarding how well or how poorly the guy was going to pitch. The Marlins were under no obligation to treat this as any different from any other game. If they had used a front line starter who had only given up one run, they still would have lost today.

September 29th, 2007, 11:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Grandstander Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Parts Unknown Northern California Posts: 6,611	How it turned out is not relevant to the question. How it turned out is all that really counts. What's irrelevant is your question.

September 30th, 2007, 06:12 PM	#12 (permalink)
LongtimeBravesFan Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4,655	Tom Glavine is headed to Cooperstown. He didn't do any better than the Marlins starter in question.

September 30th, 2007, 07:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
jtur88 Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 7,857	The integrity of baseball, like the integrity of almost anything else, is based to fairly large extend on perceptions and apearances. Basebal fans can be very fickle, as the post-strike years showed. It would not be unreasonable for the fans to sense that the Marlins, by their pitcher choice, did not place as high a value on winning the game as its importance in the pennant race might have warranted. I have neither stated nor implied any more than that. Quite frankly, I am getting more and more fed up with MLB's contempt for the fans and what fans think or desire of the game. __________________ ------------------ When people ask what I hope to see before I die, I answer that I've already seen too much.

October 1st, 2007, 04:12 AM	#14 (permalink)
unsung Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 52	Yeah the Marlins did just that. They swept the Cubs and took two of three from the Mets to end the season. Sounds just like a dive to me. Not to mention the game they did lose they were almost no-hit.