White Outfielders and Hall of Fame Don't Mix

[Triad]

Quick — think of the white outfielder who played the most recently that was elected to the Hall of Fame. Hmmm... Got to think about it, don't you? It doesn't happen very much any more.

You'd think Dale Murphy could get a break, but the voters don't seem to think white outfielders have what it takes. Sorry, Dwight Evans, they don't like you. Pete Rose is out of the question entirely for them.

Lance Berkman and Jim Edmonds aren't good enough. Not Luis Gonzalez or Steve Finley either. Not Larry Walker or Tim Salmon. Bobby Murcer? Not quite. Fred Lynn? Nah. Roger Maris? Nope.

By the way, the answer to the original question is Carl Yastrzemski. You have to go back to a career that ended in 1983 to find a white outfielder.

So, how long will it be before there is one? We may be waiting awhile. None of the active or recently retired stars fit the bill, nor any currently on the ballot. I doubt if Adam Dunn will sustain a long career without turning into Dave Kingman. Possibly the next hope is a young guy named Grady Sizemore. He could be the great white hope.

Is it possible to be a Hall of Fame white outfielder any more?

This raises another question: Who is the greatest white outfielder since Yaz and Rose? Cast your votes.

[bedir than average]

Larry Walker won't be eligible until 2010, when according to the HOF monitor number he has a strong chance. Gonzo and Edmonds are still active and sit as borderline.

Although why Gonzalez is white is beyond me.

Maris, Lynn and Murcer didn't deserve it, so they aren't in. Had nothing to do with color.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by Triad

Quick — think of the white outfielder who played the most recently that was elected to the Hall of Fame. Hmmm... Got to think about it, don't you? It doesn't happen very much any more.

You'd think Dale Murphy could get a break, but the voters don't seem to think white outfielders have what it takes. Sorry, Dwight Evans, they don't like you. Pete Rose is out of the question entirely for them.

Lance Berkman and Jim Edmonds aren't good enough. Not Luis Gonzalez or Steve Finley either. Not Larry Walker or Tim Salmon. Bobby Murcer? Not quite. Fred Lynn? Nah. Roger Maris? Nope.

By the way, the answer to the original question is Carl Yastrzemski. You have to go back to a career that ended in 1983 to find a white outfielder.

So, how long will it be before there is one? We may be waiting awhile. None of the active or recently retired stars fit the bill, nor any currently on the ballot. I doubt if Adam Dunn will sustain a long career without turning into Dave Kingman. Possibly the next hope is a young guy named Grady Sizemore. He could be the great white hope.

Is it possible to be a Hall of Fame white outfielder any more?

This raises another question: Who is the greatest white outfielder since Yaz? Cast your votes.

but almost all of those guys don't deserve to be in the hall of fame, and the couple who have a case are borderline at best. you'd think guys like jim rice, dave parker, andre dawson, albert belle could get a break? pretty hard to claim bias.

the bias could be in where the organizations put these guys on the field. but that's just a hypothesis.

[kflo]

Originally Posted by bedir than average

Larry Walker won't be eligible until 2010, when according to the HOF monitor number he has a strong chance. Gonzo and Edmonds are still active and sit as borderline.

Although why Gonzalez is white is beyond me.

Maris, Lynn and Murcer didn't deserve it, so they aren't in. Had nothing to do with color.

walker has a big coors factor that inflates his raw numbers, and will be remembered by voters.

[WilsonC]

Larry Walker will be an interesting case to watch - he'll be the first real test of how the voters look at the elevated offensive levels seen in Colorado. His raw numbers, combined with his Gold Gloves and MVP, would certainly make him a strong candidate under traditional voting results.

[Triad]

Let me clarify. I'm not saying those guys are worthy, except for Murphy, Evans and Rose. But I pointed out the others to show that there aren't that many great white outfielders any more.

And let me rephrase the last question to avoid confusion: Who's the greatest white outfielder since Yaz and Rose?

[bedir than average]

Larry Walker

Jay Buhner had as good of numbers as some of the people who are in the hall.

[Grandstander]

Wasn't Robin Yount white? He moved to centerfield at the age of 29 and remained there until he retired at the age of 38, playing in 1218 games at the position. That he also played 1479 games at short doesn't make him not an outfielder for those last nine years, does it?

And he's in the Hall of Fame.

[jtur88]

I found myself wondering which Latino players are black and which are not? (Strictly for the purposes of this discussion, of course).

Since we have for the moment set aside any PC proscription against making the distinction, can anybody come with the name of the Whiite-Anglo player (neither black nor hispanic) who has stolen the most bases in one season since Ty Cobb's 96?

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by jtur88

I found myself wondering which Latino players are black and which are not? (Strictly for the purposes of this discussion, of course).

Since we have for the moment set aside any PC proscription against making the distinction, can anybody come with the name of the Whiite-Anglo player (neither black nor hispanic) who has stolen the most bases in one season since Ty Cobb's 96?

You need to clarify what you are asking. Ty Cobb last led the league in stolen bases in 1917. From that year until 1947, all of the stolen base champions were white, non Latinos. You want a list of those 60 sb champions?

Are you asking if there have been any more recent day white stolen base artists? Brett Butler and Davey Lopes come to mind immediately (People thought Lopes was Latino...he was from Rhode Island.) Paul Molitor was also among white players to top the career 500 mark in stolen bases.

Do you mean anyone white who has recently won the sb title for his league? That would be Scott Podsednik in 2004 when he stole 70. Ichiro! won the AL title in 2001 and he isn't black or Latino....or white for that matter.

But....I really don't know exactly what you had in mind.

[Triad]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Since we have for the moment set aside any PC proscription against making the distinction, can anybody come with the name of the Whiite-Anglo player (neither black nor hispanic) who has stolen the most bases in one season since Ty Cobb's 96?

Wouldn't it be Dave Collins?

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Wasn't Robin Yount white? He moved to centerfield at the age of 29 and remained there until he retired at the age of 38, playing in 1218 games at the position. That he also played 1479 games at short doesn't make him not an outfielder for those last nine years, does it?

And he's in the Hall of Fame.

Yount's best production came as a shortstop. When rating the best players at each position, Yount would have to be considered a shortstop. (same idea with Ernie Banks) So, it would have to be said that Yount was not primarily an outfielder.

[Grandstander]

Triad
Yount's best production came as a shortstop. When rating the best players at each position, Yount would have to be considered a shortstop. (same idea with Ernie Banks) So, it would have to be said that Yount was not primarily an outfielder.
He was exclusively an outfielder for the last nine seasons of his career. He was a good enough outfielder to be named the AL's MVP in 1989.

What sort of thinking are you applying here? Because Yount was skilled enough to play an even more demanding position the first part of his career...does that mean he would have been a lousy outfielder during those years? When he won his MVP as a shortstop in 1982, he also led the AL in OPS, so I think it is safe to assume he would have also won it as a centerfielder.

Further, you listed Pete Rose as a candidate with the caveat that his banishment from baseball is what stood between him and the HoF as an outfielder, yet Rose only played about a third of his career as an outfielder, Yount played close to half.

[jtur88]

Yes, when I checked several years ago, it was Dave Collins (79), and I don't thnink anybody has topped him since. Scott Podsednik got up to 70.

Brian Roberts curreintly has 46, Eric Byrnes 45, and Grady Sizemore 33.

Jerry Owenss has 29 in less than 100 games and is still young, so might be the best active prospect of topping Collins.

[Zen653]

Although why Gonzalez is white is beyond me.

For the same reason that David Ortiz should be considered black.

Someone who is Hispanic often has mixed blood, either white with American indigenous, or black with American indigenous. I don't see why one's native language should alter his race.

In the case of Luis Gonzalez, I think he's half-American, half-Cuban, his Cuban parent being of full white Spanish descent.

As a general matter (I'm not claiming you're doing this, bedir), I don't understand the fascination with breaking players down by race.

[Triad]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

What sort of thinking are you applying here? Because Yount was skilled enough to play an even more demanding position the first part of his career...does that mean he would have been a lousy outfielder during those years?

Not at all. But is that the right question to ask? We're not trying to determine what he could have done at other positions. It seems more hypothetical to me to be projecting him at another position at a time he wasn't there.

I guess it's a personal preference thing. Bill James explained in his newer historical abstract when rating the top 100 players at each position that each player had to be listed at some position. It's true, you could call Yount a center fielder, but in lieu of calling him a shortstop, or in addition to calling him a shortstop? If you call him both, then he only had a half-career as a center fielder, and same at shortstop. It would seem the logical choice is to go with the position where he had most of his production (i.e.-the most seasons at a high production). For some players, that doesn't necessarily mean the one where they played the most games, but in Yount's case, shortstop was also the position where he played the most.

One could say Yount was a SS-CF, but when you're listing the greatest shortstops ever, he'd be in the top ten (even top 5), and when you're listing the greatest center fielders ever, he wouldn't crack the top 10. Maybe closer to 15th.

There's also the logistical problem of calling him a SS-CF. Does he then get his own position category? Or do you list him as the 7th best shortstop and 14th best center fielder? Or do you not list him in the top 20 of either because he only had half careers in each?

Originally Posted by Grandstander

When he won his MVP as a shortstop in 1982, he also led the AL in OPS, so I think it is safe to assume he would have also won it as a centerfielder.

The same could be said for Alex Rodriguez, right? Alex is much more athletic and stronger than Yount was, so he would've made a fine center fielder. In terms of speed, Rodriguez looks like he's somewhat ahead. Their per-162 game averages for SB-CS are Rodriguez 23-5, and Yount 15-6. That's not the final word on speed, but it's a good place to start.

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Further, you listed Pete Rose as a candidate with the caveat that his banishment from baseball is what stood between him and the HoF as an outfielder, yet Rose only played about a third of his career as an outfielder, Yount played close to half.

Rose was a highly unusual case in terms of number of positions played for multiple quality seasons. He excelled while at 3B, 2B, 1B and OF. Outfield was where he played more games than any of the other, and it's where most of his best highly productive seasons came (1967-74). By my reckoning, his primary position was LF.