White Outfielders and Hall of Fame Don't Mix

[Triad]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Pete Rose is inelligible, that includes the Veteran's committee. MLB would have to remove him from the inelligible list before he could be considered regardless of what the Veteran's committee wants.

I think they'll revise that posthumously, thereby viewing him as a tragic figure instead of a sympathetic figure. To me, the appropriate way for Major League Baseball to deal with Rose would be to hold a special induction for just he and Joe Jackson, to whom Rose would be forever linked. There would be no ceremony, other than unveiling his plaque. I think Rose should be enshrined, as well as Jackson, because I don't feel that politics should enter the picture. We can honor their playing ability while still despising what they might have done. Voters are so technical about clauses that they take everything a little too literally. Take the MVP voters, who parse the word "valuable" to within an inch of its life, as if the award meant anything other than "best player."

Interesing at Hardball Times, they postulate that Jimmy Rollins would have won this year's NL MVP if the Rockies hadn't made it to the playoffs, but now Matt Holliday is going to win it, simply because Colorado won 90 games instead of 89. And what if the Mets had won on Sunday and the Phillies lost? That could be enough for the voters to consider Rollins' season "less valuable."

[Grandstander]

Rollins had the fifth best OPS on his own team, I don't see how he can be the most valuable player in the league when he isn't the most valuable player on his team.

Holiday's road stats:
.301 .374 .485

Holiday's Coor's stats:
.376 .435 .722

82 RBI at home, 55 on the road. 25 homeruns at Coors, 11 on the road.

That is not an MVP candidate apart from the artificial Coor's boost.

Prince Fielder deserves the award. Then maybe Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Chipper Jones, David Wright, Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez.

Then....we can consider Rollins and Holiday.

[Triad]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

Rollins had the fifth best OPS on his own team, I don't see how he can be the most valuable player in the league when he isn't the most valuable player on his team.

Holiday's road stats:
.301 .374 .485

Holiday's Coor's stats:
.376 .435 .722

82 RBI at home, 55 on the road. 25 homeruns at Coors, 11 on the road.

That is not an MVP candidate apart from the artificial Coor's boost.

Prince Fielder deserves the award. Then maybe Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Chipper Jones, David Wright, Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez.

Then....we can consider Rollins and Holiday.

I think if Utley hadn't been injured for a significant period, he would be the deserving candidate. The bad thing about OPS is it penalizes good baserunners like Rollins. Rickey Henderson had very unimpressive OPS numbers, as they don't bear out his contributions in stealing and run scoring.

I change my vote from Rollins to Hanley Ramirez. Thank you for pointing him out. From watching ESPN, Ramirez doesn't even exist. You have a good case for Fielder too. I think Ramirez' .948 OPS, plus his 51 steals, plus the fact that he plays shortstop trumps Fielder's 1.013 OPS at 1st base.

[Grandstander]

Originally Posted by Triad

The bad thing about OPS is it penalizes good baserunners like Rollins.

No it doesn't. There is nothing which says a player cannot have a good OPS and be a good baserunner. Rickey was a poor example for you to select, he led the AL in OPS in 1990, and was in the top ten in three other seasons. Barry Bonds, Jeff Bagwell, Joe Morgan, Tim Raines, all were good baserunners, none seemed to suffer an OPS penalty as a consequence.

The only people penalized by OPS are those players with bad OPS.

[Triad]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

No it doesn't. There is nothing which says a player cannot have a good OPS and be a good baserunner. Rickey was a poor example for you to select, he led the AL in OPS in 1990, and was in the top ten in three other seasons. Barry Bonds, Jeff Bagwell, Joe Morgan, Tim Raines, all were good baserunners, none seemed to suffer an OPS penalty as a consequence.

The only people penalized by OPS are those players with bad OPS.

OPS does not account for baserunning after getting on base. It does not count stolen bases or run-scoring.

Henderson's career OPS+ was 127, which is only 189th all-time. Try telling me he's only the 189th most valuable offensive player in history. He's obviously one of the top 50, and I would argue top 20, but we'll just say 50 to be conservative.

Others rated higher:
Jack Clark, 137 (91st all-time)
Pedro Guerrero, 137 (91st all-time)
Darryl Strawberry, 138 (84th all-time)
Kevin Mitchell, 142 (63rd all-time)
Juan Gonzalez, 133 (120th all-time)
John Kruk, 133 (120th all-time)

Those whose value is ignored by OPS+:
Tim Raines, 123 (256th all-time) that's Bill Madlock/Bobby Bonilla/Eric Davis territory
Joe Morgan, 132 (128th all-time)
Ichiro Suzuki, 120 (323rd all-time)

Was Strawberry a better offensive player than Henderson, Raines, and Morgan?

Ty Cobb comes out only 10th best all-time.
Honus Wagner comes out only 30th best all-time.

Funny you'd mention Bonds, because without measuring his baserunning, OPS+ gives him a 182, which puts him third behind Ted Williams' 190.

OPS+ also puts Jim Thome (149) ahead of Alex Rodriguez (148) offensively.

It puts Ryan Klesko (128) ahead of Craig Biggio (112).

Lots of inconsistencies there.

[Carlotta]

Grady is biracial...his father is black and his mother's white, so you white folks have to look elsewhere for your "great white hope!"

[Carlotta]

Originally Posted by Triad

Quick — think of the white outfielder who played the most recently that was elected to the Hall of Fame. Hmmm... Got to think about it, don't you? It doesn't happen very much any more.

You'd think Dale Murphy could get a break, but the voters don't seem to think white outfielders have what it takes. Sorry, Dwight Evans, they don't like you. Pete Rose is out of the question entirely for them.

Lance Berkman and Jim Edmonds aren't good enough. Not Luis Gonzalez or Steve Finley either. Not Larry Walker or Tim Salmon. Bobby Murcer? Not quite. Fred Lynn? Nah. Roger Maris? Nope.

By the way, the answer to the original question is Carl Yastrzemski. You have to go back to a career that ended in 1983 to find a white outfielder.

So, how long will it be before there is one? We may be waiting awhile. None of the active or recently retired stars fit the bill, nor any currently on the ballot. I doubt if Adam Dunn will sustain a long career without turning into Dave Kingman. Possibly the next hope is a young guy named Grady Sizemore. He could be the great white hope.

Is it possible to be a Hall of Fame white outfielder any more?

This raises another question: Who is the greatest white outfielder since Yaz and Rose? Cast your votes.

Grady Sizemore is biracial, not WHITE!
His mother is white, his father is black.

[Nocahoma]

Bi-postal, too.

[Triad]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

Grady Sizemore is biracial, not WHITE!
His mother is white, his father is black.

It figures! I suppose Jacoby Ellsbury is too...

The other young center fielders with a lot of upward mobility are Curtis Granderson and Chris B. Young, both black.

Matt Holliday is a very good batter from one of the corners. Maybe he'll be the next white OF in the HOF. I don't see any other good candidates over the next 20 years.

[nanwynnfan]

"It figures! I suppose Jacoby Ellsbury is too..."

The broadcasters, during the ALCS, stated that Jacoby Ellsbury was part-Navajo in family background.

[Grandstander]

Triad:
I don't see any other good candidates over the next 20 years.

Are you forgetting Lance Berkman or are you figuring he won't make the HoF?

[bedir than average]

He had a season at first so he doesn't count.

[bigheadache]

Berkman has been the Astros primary First Baseman the last 2 1/2 years. He played RF some but 2/3 of his games during that time have been at first. In the future, he will most likely play first even more. Depending on the length of his career, he will probably play more at first than the outfield.

At 31, Berkman has 259 homeruns and 784 RBIs. He is likely to hit over 500 homeruns and drive in over 1500 runs. Today, that would get you in the Hall. 15 years from now, who knows. He has an outside chance for 600 homeruns, 3000 hits and 1800 RBIs. I imagine that will still get you in 15 years from now.

[bedir than average]

Ah, but would Biggio count as a White Outfielder? Because he's a lock for the Hall.

[bigheadache]

Biggio did play 400 games in the outfield.