100 years from now who will be remembered?

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by nanwynn

where would dramatic and classical opera be without the human voice and words?.

I had already referenced that. The human voice can be used as an accompanying instrument---or a solo one. In your appreciation of classicall opera, is it essential for you to understand the words, or does the Milton Cross synopsis during the breaks fulfill that requirement to make the semantical connection? What about ballet? Can music also be used as a 'decoration' to human body movements? Not if you can enjoy the music of Swan Lake with your eyes closed?

If it is true that music is nothing but a decoration to lyric, it would not matter if O Mio Bambino Caro were sung by Montserrat Caballe or Roseanne Barr---the lyrics would be the same. But the singer's voice is an instrument added to the overall musical arrangement.

[nanwynn]

Originally Posted by jtur88

I had already referenced that.

Does that imply that the matter is closed?

The human voice can be used as an accompanying instrument---or a solo one. In your appreciation of classicall opera, is it essential for you to understand the words, or does the Milton Cross synopsis during the breaks fulfill that requirement to make the semantical connection?

In kind. I said that already. What in heaven's name does Milton Cross' commentary have to do with music, except to reveal your age, implied multi-linguist talents, and familiarity with WQXR?

What about ballet? Can music also be used as a 'decoration' to human body movements? Not if you can enjoy the music of Swan Lake with your eyes closed?

Is that because you nodded off? How about ballet in mime? How about human body movements as decoration for music? How about body functions set to music?

If it is true that music is nothing but a decoration to lyric, it would not matter if O Mio Bambino Caro were sung by Montserrat Caballe or Roseanne Barr---the lyrics would be the same. But the singer's voice is an instrument added to the overall musical arrangement.

Drop any more names and you'll be expected to clean up after yourself.

[nanwynn]

Duplicated post deleted.

[jtur88]

I stated that you had asked a question that I had already answered. If you wanted to make a statement that disagreed with mine, you could have---but instead you just asked me to repeat what I had just said.

If you understand German, Italian and French quite well, you can utilize the words to the opera to reach full appreciation of the music. Many people do not, but somehow manage to feel fulfilled when they hear it. Somehow, if I hear an opera sung in English it detracts more than adds to the enjoyment of it. Italian opera is well received because the pure tones of Italian vowels are conducive to the function of the voice as an insturment, as opposed to a conveyor of what is being decorated.

[nanwynn]

Originally Posted by jtur88

I stated that you had asked a question that I had already answered. If you wanted to make a statement that disagreed with mine, you could have---but instead you just asked me to repeat what I had just said.

The question was rhetorical. Guess you missed that.

If you understand German, Italian and French quite well, you can utilize the words to the opera to reach full appreciation of the music. Many people do not, but somehow manage to feel fulfilled when they hear it. Somehow, if I hear an opera sung in English it detracts more than adds to the enjoyment of it. Italian opera is well received because the pure tones of Italian vowels are conducive to the function of the voice as an insturment, as opposed to a conveyor of what is being decorated.

What happened to Ben Gross?

[dlb]

So, if your identified decoration effect can be turned on and off based on chronological perceptions, then it really doesn't exist, does it?

I'll start by agreeing with you in part. There is no "law of song." If there were, I, not being a songwriter, would not be its enforcer.

However, the fact that a songwriter may start with the music and later write the words speaks more to the creative process than the intended objective. Every craft has its goals and guidelines for reaching those goals. The creative craftsman, however, doesn't always move from point A to point E through points B, C and D. He can start just about anywhere in the process and circumambulate its various points until he gets the result he wants. I do this all time in my work. The process I use depends on the information I have, the parts of that information that inspire me and the mood I'm in.

On 60 Minutes, Paul Simon told the story of his writing the song "The Coast." He had gone to Brazil and recorded various local musicians; brought the tapes home and played through them to get a feel for the sound. One night, he was sitting in his living room and listening to one of his tapes while absentmindedly bouncing a tennis ball off of the wall. Suddenly, the words, "A family of musicians took shelter for the night in the little harbor church of Saint Cecilia" just came to him. From there, the rest of the lyric just kind of worked itself out.

Now, was Simon thinking, "what words will this music best decorate?" Probably not. At the time, he had about 30 years experience as a songwriter. He was just trying to write a good song. He knows, instinctively, that the music has to present the words and the words that he developed arise (as they arose for him) out of the Brazilian sounds he used for inspiration.

Here's the full lyric for those who are interested:

A family of musicians took shelter for the night
In the little harbor church of St. Cecilia
Two guitars, bata, bass drum and tambourine
Rose of Jericho and Bougainvillea

This is a lonely life
Sorrows everywhere you turn
Afd that's worth something
When you think about it
That's worth some money
That's worth something
When you think about it
That is worth some money

A trip to the market
A trip into the pearl gray morning sunlight
That settles over Washington
A trip to the market
A trip around the world
Where the evening meal
Is negotiable, if there is one.

This is a lonely-lone, lonely life
Sorrows everywhere you turn
And that's worth something
When you think about it
That's worth some money
That's worth something
When you think about it
That is worth some money

To prove that I love you
Because I believe in you
Summer skies, stars are falling
All along the injured coast
If I have money
If I have children
Summer skies, stars are falling
All along the injured coast
Oo-wah Oo-wah Doo-wop a Doo-wah
Summer skies and stars are falling
All along the injured coast
Oo-wah Oo-wah Doo-wop a Doo-wah
Summer skies and the stars are falling
All along the injured coast

We are standing in the sunlight
The early morning sunlight
In the harbor church of St. Cecilia
To praise a soul's returning to the earth
To the rose of Jericho and the Bougainvillea

To prove that I love you
Because I believe in you
Summer skies, stars are falling
All along the injured coast
If I have money
If I have children
Summer skies, stars are falling
All along the injured coast

If I have weaknesses
Don't let them blind me now
Summer skies, stars are falling
All along the injured coast
Oo-wah Oo-wah
Doo Wop a Doo Wah
Summer skies, stars are falling
Leaving the shadow of the valley behind me now
All along the injured coast
Ooh-wah Oow-wah
Doo Wop a Doo Wah
Summer skies and stars are falling
All along the injured coast
Ooh-wah Ooh-wah
Doo Wop a Doo Wah

As a lyric, it's more than a little disjoint; so I wouldn't call this a great song. It is a very good one, though.

Another item to consider is the nonsense lyric, in which the writer uses gibberish to convey an emotion. Whether that emotion is joy or deep-seated angst, I think the effectiveness of a nonsense lyric derives from the meaninglessness of the words allowing us to turn off our analytical processes. But what do I know? I'm not a music psychologist.

Anyway, back to the "law of song," I'm reminded of this Leonard Cohen lyric:

Now the courtroom is quiet, but who will confess.
Is it true you betrayed us? The answer is Yes.
Then read me the list of the crimes that are mine,
I will ask for the mercy that you love to decline.
And all the ladies go moist, and the judge has no choice,
a singer must die for the lie in his voice.
And I thank you, I thank you for doing your duty,
you keepers of truth, you guardians of beauty.
Your vision is right, my vision is wrong,
I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song.

Oh, the night it is thick, my defences are hid
in the clothes of a woman I would like to forgive,
in the rings of her silk, in the hinge of her thighs,
where I have to go begging in beauty's disguise.
Oh goodnight, goodnight, my night after night,
my night after night, after night, after night, after night, after night.

I am so afraid that I listen to you,
your sun glassed protectors they do that to you.
It's their ways to detain, their ways to disgrace,
their knee in your balls and their fist in your face.
Yes and long live the state by whoever it's made,
sir, I didn't see nothing, I was just getting home late.