The Decline and Fall of Todd Helton.....

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by rockieprogress

Is that what you really want?
A board where a fan of the team gets devalued because they don't feel negatively about a team that just went 5-2 on the homestand?

Assuming you've directed this question to me, RP, what I want is for posters to be able to converse and speculate about players/teams on these boards without being disrespected by an aggressive and offensive post from someone else. Yes, I do consider being told that I'm enganged in a "Conspiracy Theorists' Mutual Masturbation Society" to be aggressive and offensive. And disrespectful.

If you don't see it that way, I don't quite know what to say.

[John Cocktoston]

Alright, Roxpert, I respectfully suggest that you are guilty of the precise behavior that you've been railing against for the last 24 hours. You apparently don't believe that turnabout is fair play, which I think is both incredibly ironic and indicative of the esteem in which you hold your own opinion as well as the corresponding disregard in which you hold the opinion of others.

You seem awfully concerned about your "right" to engage in speculative discussions, but seem to have no concern for my "right" to express my opinion that your position is both indefensible and not supported by a shred of factual evidence.

I also find your "ad hominem attack" comment interesting. This is an anonymous forum. Nobody here, presumably, knows who you are. Nobody here knows who I am. We're both just personas- John Cocktoston and Roxpert, respectively. So I find it difficult to believe that you feel offended on a personal level by anything that is said about you. Rather, I think you're offended on an intellectual level by the fact that anyone would have the audacity to challenge you. And that's troubling coming from someone who seems very concerned with the rights of all posters to express their opinions openly and freely.

[indianadrew]

he could have tweaked his back on the HR swings and then further aggrivated it during the slide home. i have read everybodys post and i think that everybody is getting bent out of shape. ..and yes i think there are posts that may have been borderline offensive to some. believe me i have done my fair share of offending.

everybody needs to just relax a bit. GO ROCKIES


btw..any suggestion of a mutual masterbation society is offensive

[John Cocktoston]

Nobody is saying that it's impossible, or even that it's implausible.

What I'm saying is that, to get there, you have to make a few assumptions for which there is no evidence whatsoever. My question is, what would motivate someone to do that?

Todd Helton slid awkwardly into home and then immediately reached for his back. As Newman might say, "that's a fact, Jack." So what would motivate someone to search for an answer beyond what is otherwise readily apparent?

All things being equal, the simplest solution is usually the right one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

Alright, Roxpert, I respectfully suggest that you are guilty of the precise behavior that you've been railing against for the last 24 hours. You apparently don't believe that turnabout is fair play, which I think is both incredibly ironic and indicative of the esteem in which you hold your own opinion as well as the corresponding disregard in which you hold the opinion of others.

I have not engaged lack of civility in my conversations as you have recently. Your charges of my engaging in such behavior are baseless, and unsupported. In fact, I believe it is merely an attempt to smear me because I challenged what I felt were ill-informed comments you made on Al Gore and global warming a few weeks ago.

Whatever your motivation, I ask that you cease and desist. Please stick to baseball, and stop charging people with allegations of wacky "conspiracy theories", using obnoxious language. In fact, you just said our speculation regarding Helton is not "implausible" (your last post), and thus prove my point that you went way over the top in describing our discussion as conspiratory, as if we are like those wackos who deny we went to the moon, while asking us to take it off the site. It's completely uncalled for.

John, I have told you before that I find some of your baseball commentary worthwhile, but you poision your own message by being on this seeming vendeta to get back at those you find too negative by smearing them and using insulting language. That's all.

[indianadrew]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

If this is going to turn into a meeting of the "Conspiracy Theorists' Mutual Masturbation Society" please have the decency to take it behind closed doors, guys.

The guy slid awkwardly into home plate and got up clutching his back. Newman, you would have us believe that this was orchestrated to conceal a pre-existing injury that resulted from an earlier home run? He basically threw his back out on the second home run, but wanted to wait to reveal the fact? Or maybe, better yet, he hurt himself on the first one and hit another one just to throw Sherlock Mailman off the scent before revealing his clever ruse after sliding into home?

Were you even watching the game? Let me guess, we didn't land on the moon either?

this post is where everything went south. sherlock mailman would that make roxpert..watson? BTW... why did you bring up masturbation? which guys were you refering to?

[John Cocktoston]

Roxpert, if you go back and look at the exchange we had regarding politics, global warming and Al Gore, you will notice two things: (1) that we were discussing baseball when you decided to get political and (2) I essentially dropped it when it became apparent that neither of us were going to persuade the other of anything. Now, up until that point, I had no idea what your political leanings were, nor did I care.

As for why I completely disengaged from that discussion and have not gone back to it, it's because that's not why I come to this board. I have outlets in my day to day life when I feel the need to engage in some political dialogue- blogs here and there, but mainly friends and colleagues of varying political persuasions whom I know and trust.

This is another instance of you making blanket statements about my language and behavior that fly directly in the face of what you do here on a daily basis. I did not inject politics into the discussion; that was you. Therefore, you demanding that I "cease and desist" and "stick to baseball" or your threatening to lodge "an official complaint" against me, apart from sounding ridiculous on its face, rings hollow.

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by indianadrew

BTW... why did you bring up masturbation? which guys were you refering to?

The term "mental masturbation" was simply a colorful way of conveying that I felt their exchange of ideas and theories to be a self-indulgent, but ultimately meaningless, act designed to bring about nothing. They weren't sincerely asking the questions about his back to get to an answer or a resolution; they were merely casting aspersions for the sake of casting aspersions. Much like the act of physical masturbation where, well...you probably get the idea.

It was a "Conspiracy Theorists' Mutual Masturbation Society" because they were exchanging what I consider to be far-fetched explanations for a very simple, straight-forward event. That made me think of the people who claim the US Government brought down the towers or that NASA faked the lunar landing. Intellectually, they were congratulating each other on the plausibility of their shared theories- metaphorically patting each other on the back, if you will.

However, I wasn't implying any sort of actual sexual relationship exists between Roxpert and Newman, so I apologize if that wasn't clear.

[rockieprogress]

It was clear.

That's why it was funny...

[Roxpert]

I fail to understand why it is "far-fetched" to think that Helton may have had a pre-existing condition prior to the slide, which then may have exacerbated the condition. Even you admitted it's not an "implausible" notion.

And I don't talk about politics on these threads now that we do so on the random off-topic thread. Even before that, any political reference was sparingly used metaphorically or as an analogy.

Your hyperbole and "going over-the-top" to sound clever and paint us as wacko conspiracy theorists on something as simple as speculation that Helton may have first hurt his back on that 2nd homerun swing, and not the actual slide, really says a lot more about you than about us.

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

I fail to understand why it is "far-fetched" to think that Helton may have had a pre-existing condition prior to the slide, which then may have exacerbated the condition. Even you admitted it's not an "implausible" notion.

It's not "implausible" at all. It's also not "implausible" that he hurt himself jelllo wrestling in the clubhouse with Hurdle prior to the game. But, frankly, there is as much evidence in support of the former as there is the latter.

Originally Posted by Roxpert

And I don't talk about politics on these threads now that we do so on the random off-topic thread. Even before that, any political reference was used metaphorically or as an analogy.

That's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that you were the one to bring it up in the first place, so you trying to take me to task for going off the reservation smacks of hypocricy.

Originally Posted by Roxpert

Your hyperbole and "going over-the-top" to sound clever and paint us as wacko conspiracy theorists on something as simple as speculation that Helton may have first hurt his back on that 2nd homerun swing, and not the actual slide, really says a lot more about you than about us.

What is hyperbolic about what I'm saying? I'm saying that you have no reasonable grounds upon which to base your speculation. And that's fine, but call it what it is. Don't sit there and pretend that your explanation is every bit as likely as the fact that he hurt himself sliding into home!

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

That's fine. But that doesn't change the fact that you were the one to bring it up in the first place, so you trying to take me to task for going off the reservation smacks of hypocricy.

John, you take me out of context if you think my past political analogies make me a hypocrite. They were all in the context of baseball discussion, that is until you took me to task on Gore/global-warming, and our off-topic debate began. Yes, we should have found another thread for that debate, but that fact hardly makes me a hypocrite NOW when I ask you to cease and desist from your aggressive and offensive rhetoric, and stick to baseball.

In short, you are going out of your way to be mean-spirited to a handful of posters, and that's not in keeping with community standards.

What is hyperbolic about what I'm saying? I'm saying that you have no reasonable grounds upon which to base your speculation. And that's fine, but call it what it is. Don't sit there and pretend that your explanation is every bit as likely as the fact that he hurt himself sliding into home!

If what I placed in bold typeface in the above quote was ALL you had said, I would have had no problem or grievance with that. Unfortunately, you went WAY beyond that statement to call us "conspiracy theorists" "wackos", and even using a sexual metaphor. That's what crossed the line.

And I never said or "pretended" that our speculation was "every bit as likely" as the official explanation as to how Helton got hurt. In fact, I never even opined on the likelihood of our theory other than to say, "I know, I'm reaching here". In short, Newman discussed that one possibility with me, and I agreed with such speculation as simply a possibility, and hardly the definitive truth.

Even Newman said none of us can know for sure unless we are on the inside, or know Helton very well.

Now, will you please get off your high-horse and engage in reasonable discourse instead of wild accusations about us?

[hotshotTheGreat]

You dont just trade Helton just to trade him. If someone is stupid and wants to give up the farm, then you do it. But you dont go trade him for a couple of AA pitchers. That will just feed into our owners hands of no commitment to win. He has some game left, contrary to popular belief.

I think the reason the Power numbers are down is because he is playing a role this season. He isnt hacking at everything. Look at his BB/9 innings. They are ridiculous.

But this not-want-to-pay-him arguement doesnt work for me. Our owners have money, and they refuse to spend it. If we traded Helton we would become the Royals, with better players. Our payroll would be 40 million next season and it would be an embarassment.

What, do you think that with these owners, if we move Helton they are going to reinvest Helton's contract back to the team?!?!? HAHAHA! Yeah. We would have an easier time trying to investigate the Kennedy Asassination then trying to figure out where our Majority Owner's payroll would be next season.

[John Cocktoston]

To hold on to Holliday, Fuentes and Cook through arbitration this Winter would cost approximately $20 million incremental dollars. Add to that equation the cost of trying to lock up both Atkins and Holliday and you can quickly see why keeping Todd Helton (who is still a fine player) represents a significant opportunity cost.

It's not about whether Helton is still a good hitter (he is) or whether he still makes the team better (he does). You can't evaluate it in a vacuum. It's the other pieces that fall into place (or don't fall into place) around him on the roster that dictate whether or not it's a good move.

[bedir than average]

Just a did you know

Did you know that on average the team trading away a player making more than 10M$ per year either pays cash, or takes back other poor contracts equal to about 50% of the total deal? (numbers for 2000 to present, about 30 or so deals)