The Decline and Fall of Todd Helton.....

[HoyaRoxFan]

I don't know. I still doubt very much whether a typical fan, GM, or beat reporter at a press conference, upon hearing that the newly-signed savior had 140 RBI last year, would follow up with, yes, but how many RBI opportunities did the gentleman have last year?

I know what you're aiming at aspire, and as noted, I'm not denying you'll hear discussion of the RBI at press conferences, I'm just not convinced a sound bite stat is necessarily a valuable stat for anything beyond a sound bite. Roxpert expressed this point more succinctly than I was able to.

There is one other place where an RBI is a useful stat, however, and that is when spoken of in the context of the entire team. Knowing how many RBI your team is getting collectively versus how many they're leaving on base tells you pretty well how they're playing together... in the same way that ERA and W/L tell as much about how a team is performing around a pitcher than they do individual performance.

Knowing how many runs your team is driving in is a useful bit of info, but if your team isn't driving them in, you don't tell your GM to go get a guy with a lot of RBI, nor do you tell the press that is what you want; you tell him to go get a good hitter with power. One is indicative of his opportunity and the other his skill.

[Roxpert]

HoyaRoxFan, you are correct. The RBI is a well-understood stat by the masses of fans, so is used in press conferences or by the media to lazily explain a player. And, as most of us know, it doesn't explain the player very much.

I always used to hear on TV in the '70's that Tony Perez is a "great RBI guy". Curt Gowdy used to gush over him to his sidekick, Tony Kubek, on NBC's Saturday Game of the Week because they used to constantly show the Big Red Machine. Little mention was made of the OPPORTUNITIES given to Perez by the likes of Rose, Morgan, Griffey, etc. I remember, at that young age, looking at his average and SLG, and wondering why they were so effusive about Perez. Only later in my life as a baseball fan did I figure out that it was all a bunch of hooey.

Too bad some fans STILL haven't learned that lesson, and the media still uses the RBI stat (as well as GMs at press conferences).

[hiaspire]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

I always used to hear on TV in the '70's that Tony Perez is a "great RBI guy". Curt Gowdy used to gush over him to his sidekick, Tony Kubek, on NBC's Saturday Game of the Week because they used to constantly show the Big Red Machine. Little mention was made of the OPPORTUNITIES given to Perez by the likes of Rose, Morgan, Griffey, etc.

You CAN'T have a lot of RBIs without opportunities. Other than a solo shot, you NEED baserunners to cash in those RBIs. What you see as ignoring that fact to me just seems like unspoken common sense that people do factor into such considerations naturally.

A great RBI guy is someone who comes through WHEN runners are on base. Right? You need both. Having those opportunities goes hand-in-hand, and I think everyone (especially those calling games for a living) knows that. The compliment is related to coming through when those opportunities exist. Announcers probably talk about a guy's RBI much more when runners are on base to bring home to add to that total and illustrate the number of times they have come through before in those situations.

I wouldn't diminish from the hitter just because people were on base, or ignore that meaningful event entirely. The hitter deserves credit for cashing in on the opportunity. The RBI was an accomplishment there that helps the team on their efforts to win the game.

The guys getting on base deserve their own credit also for their participation in making that run happen too, and if you have a very high average or OBP to get into that position often to help your team, you usually get plenty of credit for that. I don't think Rose and Morgan lacked any attention, or that all of it went to Tony Perez instead. It was mostly the other way around. But I don't see the harm in crediting Perez for knocking guys in. That's his job, that's what he gets paid to do, that's what his team expects, and he deserves credit for doing it.

[BigRapidsJackass]

When I was a kid Tony Perez was my favorite player.

And a fine, fine player he was. But as I've gotten older (and wiser?) I've come to see how hollow the "Perez is the consummate RBI man" argument is.

I don't hate the RBI as a stat. In fact, I kind of ove how Hack Wilson's record (193 ... in a 154 game season!) hasn't seriously been challenged while all of the Babe's HR records have. It's not as bad a stat as some that have come and gone (anyone remember GWRBI, the ridiculous "game winning RBI"), but it is of limited value. The fact that Helton's RBI total this year is low relative to his BA and place in the batting order tells us something, but that "something" is pretty much obvious already: he has half the HRs Garret Atkins has.

[Roxpert]

Jackass, it's not a matter of "love" or "hate" of the RBI stat. I personally have nothing personal against it, and like to see the number of RBIs a player has, but NOT for the reasons that some other fans want to see it.

To me, the RBI count simply shows A) how much a particular player has been up to the plate with runners on, and B) how many of the runners the player has plated. It is really only a metric that tells us what happened thus far, NOT what WILL happen in the future. And being that I like to know what happened, the RBI is useful to that extent, and that extent only.

Thanks for reminding me of the GWRBI. Do you remember "runs produced"? It's calculated as "Runs scored plus RBIs, minus homeruns". I guess they subtracted HRs so that it wouldn't be double-counted since one HR equals one run and one RBI for the hitter. People used to pay lots of attention to that stat, but you hardly hear about it anymore for some reason. Maybe, in the future, the RBI will be less covered as well, though I doubt it.

[DieHardRoxFan]

I wonder if arbitrators use the RBI when making awards?

[Roxpert]

I don't know how much arbitrators weigh it, but there's almost no doubt that the agents use it in arbitration hearings when it's to their advantage. Remember that arbitrators know next to nothing about sabermetrics and can be swayed by persuasive agents.

On another subject, maybe this news could indirectly imply what's wrong with Helton's energy level, or power. He was so close to this player....

ESPN - Tigers' Perez tests positive for banned stimulant - MLB

[indianadrew]

roxpert are you suggesting that helton's numbers have been inflated due to performance enhancing drugs?

[HoyaRoxFan]

Saw that story too... as soon as I saw the headline, my first reaction was to worry this would snake back to the Rockies... hope not.

[TheIncredibleRox]

Wow. Neifi Perez is 34.... that snuck up on me. I know he gained a couple years at some point due to birth certificate forgery, but damn.

[indianadrew]

wasn't there a poster on the old board "neififan"?

[Roxpert]

No, it was desifan, and greenies are not a performance enhancing drug, per-se. They were common in baseball before this year, based on various reports. This year, players are being disciplined for them, so presumably they are being weeded out of the game. To the extent that players have depended on them for boosts in energy level (and thus power indirectly), it is certainly possible that stopping usage of these pills could cause some players a loss of pop. Whether Helton is one of them, we may never know. He was the angriest player when Perez was traded, so it's clear how close they were.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Losing Perez will not likely affect the defending AL champions much because Perez was hitting a mere .172 with one homer and six RBIs in just 64 at-bats in the team's first 83 games.

You can say that again. Maybe the Tigers spiked his coffee to save the $400,000.

[Newman]

Wasn't Barroid Bonds busted for amphetamines earlier in the year? But he never was suspended for 25 games. Does that mean that this is Neifi's second offense? Or is it because Barry has a better lawyer?

Helton may no longer be much of an RBI man (I wish they'd put a real slugger in the cleanup spot like Brad Hawpe), but he made some nifty gold glove type plays at the end to preserve the victory. Good relief work as well.

[Roxpert]

Helton may not be able to get around on a 90 MPH fastball anymore, but it hasn't slowed his reflexes at 1st base. He was like Keith Hernandez out there tonight with brilliant plays in the 11th inning.