Torrealba versus Iannetta

Roxpert · 05-08-2007, 10:51 PM

Let's see if anyone can fathom this. Chris Iannetta came into the regular season penciled in as the starting catcher. Many so-called experts had him contending for the ROY this year. Torrealba was to be the backup.

Through 20% of the season, Iannetta has an OPS of .707, not what we had expected, but it has improved of late. Torrealba has a frightening OPS of .526, but started tonight's game for the 2nd game in a row.

In fact, Torrealba has 74 plate appearances (not including tonight), while Iannetta has 65 plate appearances.

WHY, when Iannetta had won the starting job in Spring Training, which wasn't a surprise, does he have only 47% of the plate appearances between the two of them?

And it's not like Iannetta has been outplayed defensively by Torrealba. These unexplanable mysteries are why Clint Hurdle stinks. He can't get out of his thick skull the notion that Yorvit is "clutch". I think that's why he has more than 50% of the playing time this season.

BigRapidsJackass · 05-08-2007, 11:05 PM

Yorvit has the RBI magic!

In defense of Hurdle, it could be that Buchholz and Yorvit have some kind of sympatico thing going on. Yorvit had a couple lengthy chats on the mound with Buchholz tonight, and the results were good.

But the real question I've always had is this: O'Dowd (and people who ought to know better, like Ringolsby) has for 3 years now had the notion that Torrealba will "blossom" into a 20+ HR offensive force. Why they thought this I'll never know. He's a career .250 hitter who very rarely walks who'll hit a HR approximately every 40-50 plate appearances -- that is, once every 10 games, or about 10-12 a year. There has never, ever, ever been any rational basis for thinking otherwise. But that's never stopped O'Dowd, Hurdle, & Co. before ...

RMF · 05-08-2007, 11:10 PM

Torrealba is part of this organization because of Hurdle. We know Hurdle loves him. But the managers job is to put the best ball club out there. I think Iannetta has shown enough lately to be getting at least 3/4 of the starts.

This club has always been managed by Hurdle's gut and that is part of the problem.Don't get me wrong he also looks at really small sampled matchup data.

Roxpert · 05-08-2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

Yorvit has the RBI magic!

In defense of Hurdle, it could be that Buchholz and Yorvit have some kind of sympatico thing going on. Yorvit had a couple lengthy chats on the mound with Buchholz tonight, and the results were good.

I'm not even talking about tonight in particular, Jackass. I'm talking about 20% of the season spent using Torrealba more than half the time when he was supposed to be the backup. I'll bet nobody told Iannetta that he lost the starting job either, and he's quietly scratching his head.

BigRapidsJackass · 05-08-2007, 11:30 PM

Iannetta will start tomorrow, the day game after a night game thing.

And watch: unless Iannetta strikes out 4 times or makes a couple wild throws or something like that, he'll get the next couple starts against the Giants.

Why?

Well, because Yorvit's BA is now .217. I am convinced that Hurdle makes decisions on things like this. His season BA is meaningless since he only has 74 plate appearances. The only thing that's meaningful is his career .247 BA, and that's exactly what he'd be hitting if he had 2 more bloops/dribblers go for base hits this year.

But Hurdle will say it's time for him to take a breather and "slow the game down."

He is a good backup catcher. A fine defensive catcher with occasional pop. He is what he is. He doesn't need to make "adjustments" at the plate since he is doing exactly what any rational person would expect him to be doing this year.

I think this is Hurdle's main flaw: the micro-managing of his roster. Because Denny Bautista had a couple good outings he isn't magically your 7th inning stud, the guy who is so good that a fresh Denny will be better than Taylor Buchholz on his 72nd pitch. But that's not how Hurdle manages. When Yorvit had a couple 2 RBI hits, Hurdle was convinced he was "hot." When Bautista looked o.k. twice in a row he was convinced that he has arrived.

I think it's worth keeping Bautista around because he has real talent, and he may put it together some day. But it just strikes me as idiocy to put him in in a critical 1-run lead game situation in the 7th inning when just a few weeks ago he couldn't even beat out Bobby Keppel for a roster spot. Same with Arias: one nice outing, and suddenly Hurdle is calling on a guy who was completely disposable in AA last year to keep this club in the game in a bases-loaded situation in the 7th with the game still on the line.

One last thought: Jeff Baker is out of options, and he needs playing time if only to reignite some trade interest. He needs to come down with a BK Special right away -- a "thumb contusion" requiring an extended rehab assignment. Look for that to happen very soon.

Roxpert · 05-08-2007, 11:57 PM

I think you're right, Jackass. Hurdle seems to try to play the "hot hand" too often, regardless of the TALENT differential between the alternatives. However, in the case of Iannetta vs. Torrealba, Chris has actually been hotter than Yorvit for a while now, and yet Hurdle still gives Torrealba half the starts. One would think it can't go on much longer like that.

I believe Hurdle actually told a reporter yesterday that the two will split time until one of them gets on a hot streak. Such a short term strategy is his perogative, but I still never heard the announcement that Iannetta had lost his starting job. Bottom line is that the kid should be getting 100 starts this sesaon at a minimum to enhance his development for 2008.

Hurdle is too short term and "tactical" in his thinking.

wolf213 · 05-09-2007, 12:47 AM

Your right, this is getting ridiculous. Ianetta is the one who has a career ahead of him. It does him no good sitting on the Bench.

Torri is what he is, a career backup. Theres nothing wrong with that, Torri is actually a decent backup, but for Ianettas sake, let the kid start.

Ianetta has a better OPS then guys like Barret, Lo Duca, Bard, Y. Molina, Schneider, Paulino.

He's having a good season. Let him play.

Oh and as far has Hurdle's Quote saying that he is waiting for a catcher to get hot to give him starting time....

Player A over the last 7 games: .308/.438/.846/1.284
Player B over the last 7 games: .000/.000/.000/.000

Guess which one is which.

DieHardRoxFan · 05-09-2007, 01:54 AM

As soon as Ianetta started to pick it up he's on the bench. No surprise from the highly predictable, micro match-up, fake tan, Cooler.

rockieprogress · 05-10-2007, 11:58 PM

If Iannetta was given the same chance that Tulo has gotten, there is a chance that he would also show progress in his development.

Tulo has been given the chance (and at the start of the season, he looked over-matched) because of his glove. He got comfortable, and the results have improved.

Iannetta is a good receiver, and probably a better receiver than Torrealba at this point, yet he isn't being given the same chance to develop and find his comfort zone at this level. Yes his hitting isn't where it should be, but young players that are looking over their shoulder to see if the Manager is talking to their competition, rarely do.
They're usually trying to hit a 5-run HR every at-bat.

It leads me to believe that Yorvit is Hurdle's guy, and he will stick with him to the very end to prove to the organization, that getting him last year was a worthwhile investment.
And that's a shame.

April 21, 2007

Roxpert · 05-11-2007, 12:16 AM

What does the date mean, RP?

rockieprogress · 05-11-2007, 11:37 AM

That's the date I would've fired Hurdle.
And since then, he's done nothing to change my mind.

Roxpert · 05-13-2007, 07:54 PM

While today's game didn't even merit one mention in the series thread, one thing to mention is that Torrealba got the 3rd start in this weekend's 4-game series.

WHY?

Iannetta must quietly be fuming.

Roxpert · 06-02-2007, 01:48 PM

Quick update on this ongoing situation:

I am beyond frustration with Hurdle's love for Torrealba versus Iannetta. It sickens me. Chris was SUPPOSED to have won the starting job at catcher, which is why we released Javy Lopez. His OPS is not good, at .655, but Torrealba's OPS is only .559, yet Hurdle has chosen to give Yorvit 128 plate appearances to Iannetta's 103, or 55% of their combined plate appearances. And it's NOT on catching merit. He's just playing "favorites" and is deluded into thinking Torrealba is a better "clutch" hitter.

How does Hurdle think Iannetta can get into any sort of rhythm by sitting him 6 of every 10 games? Chris must feel like he was lied to when he "won" the starting job, and I never saw an announcement that he had lost it.

If there's any SINGLE reason to fire Hurdle this season, it's how he has handled his young up-and-coming catcher. He seems to think he's no better than Closser, which for me would be grounds for termination (if I were the owner).

BigRapidsJackass · 06-02-2007, 10:35 PM

Iannetta took an 0-4 collar today.

Neither of them is hitting. Only one of them fits in the Rockies future plans.

EDIT: I just checked out of curiosity. Ardoin has a .607 career OPS. And Hurdle, quite properly, treated him as strong defensive catcher but a clear offensive liability. He always batted 8th, he was frequently pinch hit for, etc.

Torrealba? He's a bit more proficient as a hitter, but certainly not a whole lot more. Certainly not so at all this year (small sample, so I won't blame him for the horrible OPS.) The same description (good receiver/offensive liability) fits him. Yet I can't recall Clint pinch hitting for him, and I do recall him batting as high as 6th in the order. He's a good, useful ballplayer and he adds a little emotion on a pretty bland/leaderless club. Fine. But some day -- the offseason I hope? -- O'Dowd and Hurdle are going to give up on that fantasy that he's an .850 OPS, 20 HR guy at Coors.

Dreams die hard.

sg8335aa · 06-04-2007, 02:17 PM

Strikeouts......

The main difference here is that Iannetta is a bit overmatched (or even overly-patient to a fault)

Torrealba has struck out 22 times in 121 AB......18% of his AB
Iannetta has struck out 29 times in 87 AB.......33% of his AB

Yes, Iannetta has a dramatically higher walk rate. Yes, Iannetta is the "future" at this position. However, strikeouts hurt more at Coors that most other parks (considering the altitude and park dimentions and traditionally high BABIP at Coors).

Once Iannetta curtails his strikeouts, he'll be getting far more of the starts.

05-08-2007, 10:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,008	Torrealba versus Iannetta Let's see if anyone can fathom this. Chris Iannetta came into the regular season penciled in as the starting catcher. Many so-called experts had him contending for the ROY this year. Torrealba was to be the backup. Through 20% of the season, Iannetta has an OPS of .707, not what we had expected, but it has improved of late. Torrealba has a frightening OPS of .526, but started tonight's game for the 2nd game in a row. In fact, Torrealba has 74 plate appearances (not including tonight), while Iannetta has 65 plate appearances. WHY, when Iannetta had won the starting job in Spring Training, which wasn't a surprise, does he have only 47% of the plate appearances between the two of them? And it's not like Iannetta has been outplayed defensively by Torrealba. These unexplanable mysteries are why Clint Hurdle stinks. He can't get out of his thick skull the notion that Yorvit is "clutch". I think that's why he has more than 50% of the playing time this season.

05-09-2007, 12:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 188	Your right, this is getting ridiculous. Ianetta is the one who has a career ahead of him. It does him no good sitting on the Bench. Torri is what he is, a career backup. Theres nothing wrong with that, Torri is actually a decent backup, but for Ianettas sake, let the kid start. Ianetta has a better OPS then guys like Barret, Lo Duca, Bard, Y. Molina, Schneider, Paulino. He's having a good season. Let him play. Oh and as far has Hurdle's Quote saying that he is waiting for a catcher to get hot to give him starting time.... Player A over the last 7 games: .308/.438/.846/1.284 Player B over the last 7 games: .000/.000/.000/.000 Guess which one is which. Last edited by wolf213; 05-09-2007 at 12:50 AM.

06-02-2007, 10:35 PM	#14 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,101	Iannetta took an 0-4 collar today. Neither of them is hitting. Only one of them fits in the Rockies future plans. EDIT: I just checked out of curiosity. Ardoin has a .607 career OPS. And Hurdle, quite properly, treated him as strong defensive catcher but a clear offensive liability. He always batted 8th, he was frequently pinch hit for, etc. Torrealba? He's a bit more proficient as a hitter, but certainly not a whole lot more. Certainly not so at all this year (small sample, so I won't blame him for the horrible OPS.) The same description (good receiver/offensive liability) fits him. Yet I can't recall Clint pinch hitting for him, and I do recall him batting as high as 6th in the order. He's a good, useful ballplayer and he adds a little emotion on a pretty bland/leaderless club. Fine. But some day -- the offseason I hope? -- O'Dowd and Hurdle are going to give up on that fantasy that he's an .850 OPS, 20 HR guy at Coors. Dreams die hard. Last edited by BigRapidsJackass; 06-02-2007 at 10:43 PM.

05-08-2007, 11:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,101	Yorvit has the RBI magic! In defense of Hurdle, it could be that Buchholz and Yorvit have some kind of sympatico thing going on. Yorvit had a couple lengthy chats on the mound with Buchholz tonight, and the results were good. But the real question I've always had is this: O'Dowd (and people who ought to know better, like Ringolsby) has for 3 years now had the notion that Torrealba will "blossom" into a 20+ HR offensive force. Why they thought this I'll never know. He's a career .250 hitter who very rarely walks who'll hit a HR approximately every 40-50 plate appearances -- that is, once every 10 games, or about 10-12 a year. There has never, ever, ever been any rational basis for thinking otherwise. But that's never stopped O'Dowd, Hurdle, & Co. before ...

05-08-2007, 11:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
RMF Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 195	Torrealba is part of this organization because of Hurdle. We know Hurdle loves him. But the managers job is to put the best ball club out there. I think Iannetta has shown enough lately to be getting at least 3/4 of the starts. This club has always been managed by Hurdle's gut and that is part of the problem.Don't get me wrong he also looks at really small sampled matchup data.

05-08-2007, 11:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,101	Iannetta will start tomorrow, the day game after a night game thing. And watch: unless Iannetta strikes out 4 times or makes a couple wild throws or something like that, he'll get the next couple starts against the Giants. Why? Well, because Yorvit's BA is now .217. I am convinced that Hurdle makes decisions on things like this. His season BA is meaningless since he only has 74 plate appearances. The only thing that's meaningful is his career .247 BA, and that's exactly what he'd be hitting if he had 2 more bloops/dribblers go for base hits this year. But Hurdle will say it's time for him to take a breather and "slow the game down." He is a good backup catcher. A fine defensive catcher with occasional pop. He is what he is. He doesn't need to make "adjustments" at the plate since he is doing exactly what any rational person would expect him to be doing this year. I think this is Hurdle's main flaw: the micro-managing of his roster. Because Denny Bautista had a couple good outings he isn't magically your 7th inning stud, the guy who is so good that a fresh Denny will be better than Taylor Buchholz on his 72nd pitch. But that's not how Hurdle manages. When Yorvit had a couple 2 RBI hits, Hurdle was convinced he was "hot." When Bautista looked o.k. twice in a row he was convinced that he has arrived. I think it's worth keeping Bautista around because he has real talent, and he may put it together some day. But it just strikes me as idiocy to put him in in a critical 1-run lead game situation in the 7th inning when just a few weeks ago he couldn't even beat out Bobby Keppel for a roster spot. Same with Arias: one nice outing, and suddenly Hurdle is calling on a guy who was completely disposable in AA last year to keep this club in the game in a bases-loaded situation in the 7th with the game still on the line. One last thought: Jeff Baker is out of options, and he needs playing time if only to reignite some trade interest. He needs to come down with a BK Special right away -- a "thumb contusion" requiring an extended rehab assignment. Look for that to happen very soon.

05-08-2007, 11:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,008	I think you're right, Jackass. Hurdle seems to try to play the "hot hand" too often, regardless of the TALENT differential between the alternatives. However, in the case of Iannetta vs. Torrealba, Chris has actually been hotter than Yorvit for a while now, and yet Hurdle still gives Torrealba half the starts. One would think it can't go on much longer like that. I believe Hurdle actually told a reporter yesterday that the two will split time until one of them gets on a hot streak. Such a short term strategy is his perogative, but I still never heard the announcement that Iannetta had lost his starting job. Bottom line is that the kid should be getting 100 starts this sesaon at a minimum to enhance his development for 2008. Hurdle is too short term and "tactical" in his thinking.

05-09-2007, 01:54 AM	#8 (permalink)
DieHardRoxFan Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 153	As soon as Ianetta started to pick it up he's on the bench. No surprise from the highly predictable, micro match-up, fake tan, Cooler.

05-10-2007, 11:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 182	If Iannetta was given the same chance that Tulo has gotten, there is a chance that he would also show progress in his development. Tulo has been given the chance (and at the start of the season, he looked over-matched) because of his glove. He got comfortable, and the results have improved. Iannetta is a good receiver, and probably a better receiver than Torrealba at this point, yet he isn't being given the same chance to develop and find his comfort zone at this level. Yes his hitting isn't where it should be, but young players that are looking over their shoulder to see if the Manager is talking to their competition, rarely do. They're usually trying to hit a 5-run HR every at-bat. It leads me to believe that Yorvit is Hurdle's guy, and he will stick with him to the very end to prove to the organization, that getting him last year was a worthwhile investment. And that's a shame. April 21, 2007

05-11-2007, 12:16 AM	#10 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,008	What does the date mean, RP?

05-11-2007, 11:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 182	That's the date I would've fired Hurdle. And since then, he's done nothing to change my mind.

05-13-2007, 07:54 PM	#12 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,008	While today's game didn't even merit one mention in the series thread, one thing to mention is that Torrealba got the 3rd start in this weekend's 4-game series. WHY? Iannetta must quietly be fuming.

06-02-2007, 01:48 PM	#13 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,008	Quick update on this ongoing situation: I am beyond frustration with Hurdle's love for Torrealba versus Iannetta. It sickens me. Chris was SUPPOSED to have won the starting job at catcher, which is why we released Javy Lopez. His OPS is not good, at .655, but Torrealba's OPS is only .559, yet Hurdle has chosen to give Yorvit 128 plate appearances to Iannetta's 103, or 55% of their combined plate appearances. And it's NOT on catching merit. He's just playing "favorites" and is deluded into thinking Torrealba is a better "clutch" hitter. How does Hurdle think Iannetta can get into any sort of rhythm by sitting him 6 of every 10 games? Chris must feel like he was lied to when he "won" the starting job, and I never saw an announcement that he had lost it. If there's any SINGLE reason to fire Hurdle this season, it's how he has handled his young up-and-coming catcher. He seems to think he's no better than Closser, which for me would be grounds for termination (if I were the owner).

06-04-2007, 02:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
sg8335aa Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 118	Strikeouts...... The main difference here is that Iannetta is a bit overmatched (or even overly-patient to a fault) Torrealba has struck out 22 times in 121 AB......18% of his AB Iannetta has struck out 29 times in 87 AB.......33% of his AB Yes, Iannetta has a dramatically higher walk rate. Yes, Iannetta is the "future" at this position. However, strikeouts hurt more at Coors that most other parks (considering the altitude and park dimentions and traditionally high BABIP at Coors). Once Iannetta curtails his strikeouts, he'll be getting far more of the starts.