Torrealba versus Iannetta - Page 2

Roxpert · June 4th, 2007, 02:15 PM

So, SG, you are OK with Hurdle "cooling" off Iannetta and making it even harder for him to make consistent contact? It's the old Catch-22: Iannetta is sitting out 60% of the games because he is striking out too much, but he's making poor contact because he isn't seeing consistent action.

And you just pointed out the higher walk-rate. What about the higher OPS overall, despite the higher K-rate? Why on earth would you care about a higher K-rate when that same player is getting on base so much more, and showing more isolated power?

Absolutely nothing in their relative performance to each other would justify Torrealba getting a 55% share of the combined total plate appearances, especially given that Iannetta was ordained this year's starting catcher and has been healthy.

Can Hurdle do no wrong in your mind???

indianadrew · June 4th, 2007, 03:45 PM

iannetta also has a higher OBP and a higher SLG.

Dante Bichette · June 4th, 2007, 06:42 PM

I Really think that Torealba is slightly better at this point. Not much, but slightly better. However, considering that Ianetta is a young player with some upside while Torealbe has maxed out as a major leaguer, I agree that Ianetta should be getting more starts and at bats. I think a 50/50 platoon is in order for now until one gets hot at the plate or begins to distinguish himself. If neither does, Hurdle should still give more at bats to Ianetta as the season moves along because of his age and potential.

Rankal · June 4th, 2007, 08:38 PM

I have to agree with DB. I think Torrealba, as much as I hate to say it, is better offensively than Chris Iannetta. And I'm going off the samples that we've seen this season so far.

If you have runners at 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, and have to pick between Iannetta and Torrealba, who do you pick?

Right now, I'd have to pick Torrealba. Iannetta is going to continue to struggle because he's trying so hard to "win back" the starting job that he's having poor ballgames pushing himself too hard.

Yes, Hurdle needs to say "Chris, you're my guy for the next 7 games. Let's see what you can do." But will he? No. Because then he can't screw up ballgames like he loves to do with his micro-managing.

RMF · June 4th, 2007, 08:51 PM

I think part of what we're seeing is a style prejudice. Clint Hurdle tells the hitters that they need to be more patient but he doesn't mean it. Chris Iannetta see's plenty of pitches. I think his strikeouts will be a nice investment for the future. He's got to see the pitchers in order to beat them. That's his style. He's overmatched sometimes right now. But he's got much more upside than Torrealba. And he's not going to grow unless he gets to face everyone.

Hurdle may preach patience on the surface but he's always been a swing early and often guy. That just isn't Iannetta's style. This is just totally botched and I really hope that O'dowd gets rid of Torrealba. These are the things that the Rockies do wrong and over time it really ads up. Instead of Iannetta developing this season he's going to have to develop next season. The team isn't worse with him behind the plate. In fact he's one small hitting streak away from being significantly better.

Hurdle please remove Torrealba's balls from your chin.

Roxpert · June 4th, 2007, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rankal

I have to agree with DB. I think Torrealba, as much as I hate to say it, is better offensively than Chris Iannetta. And I'm going off the samples that we've seen this season so far.

I think it's amazing how one bases-loaded homerun, and one bases clearing double during critical moments in a couple games will alter a player perceptions. Torrealba has hit .215/.280/.273, for goodness sakes! This notion that two clutch hits this season has "earned" Yorvit a majority of the PT behind the plate is just silly. He has 5 extra basehits, including the one homer, in 121 ABs. He has failed in FAR more clutch situations than the couple in which he succeeded. And those two clutch hits are predictive of nothing.

Iannetta has hit .184/.318/.310. His ISO is .126.....not great by any means. However, Torrealba's ISO is .056.......just putrid. Also, Chris has 7 extra basehits in 87 ABs compared to Yorvit's 5 in 121.

Soooo......what exactly have you seen this season so far that makes you think Torrealba has been a better offensive player than Iannetta? Are we watching the same two players?

I think this is also another strong example of how BATTING AVERAGE strongly influences PERCEPTIONS about hitters. Or, in other words, .215 just "looks" better than .184.

HoyaRoxFan · June 4th, 2007, 09:38 PM

Not having any numbers to base such a claim on, my eye says Yorvit plays like an average catcher - nothing remarkable, nothing particularly stupid. When he's in the game, I tend to forget about the catcher altogether. I've seen Iannetta be a bit more animated in a good way, making some good catches, keeping control of the game, and I'd like to see more of what the kid can do with the bat.

I wonder though if we know what the pitchers' preferences are... have Iannetta's starts matched up with a particular SP vs. Yorvit's starts?

bedir than average · June 4th, 2007, 09:42 PM

So someone mentions a bunch of RBI in late game situations by Torrealba and I say to myself "Why not look up each guys WPA?"

Rockies Stats - Win Probability | Fan Graphs

Ianetta is 6th on the team with a .34
Torrealba is 2nd to last with a -.98

Unless Ianetta is one of the worst denfensive catchers in the league he should be the primary catcher

BigRapidsJackass · June 4th, 2007, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Hurdle may preach patience on the surface but he's always been a swing early and often guy. That just isn't Iannetta's style.

RMF, I think you hit the nail on the head. Just think about the game in which Holliday emerged from the dugout with a cut up head: he jumped on the first pitch and hit into a double play in a situation that just cried out for some patience. But Hurdle doesn't ever mind. He doesn't want to curtail a hitter's "aggressiveness." In Hurdle's best season as a player he walked 34 times in 430 PAs: one BB per 13 PAs.

Remember too, Iannetta has hit in the 8-hole in every game this year (I think; perhaps Quintanilla hit 8th one game). Torrealba has hit in the 6, 7, or 8. And Iannetta's patience is well suited to the 8 hole. I've been interested lately in how some players seem to be able to adapt to batting 8th in the NL and some absolutely can't -- Barmes is the chief example for me of the guy who just couldn't learn to lay off the junk pitchers feed to the 8th place hitter.

Repeat after me: Torrealba = Fine Backup Catcher who will likely be gone after this season (if not earlier). Iannetta = Only Legitimate Homegrown Catching Prospect this club has ever developed.

Rankal · June 5th, 2007, 08:23 PM

But Torrealba may hit 20 HR's! We have to give him the chance!

(sarcasm)

I've given up pushing for Iannetta. Only because I'm tired of being disappointed when I check the lineup.

sg8335aa · July 30th, 2007, 02:27 PM

its funny how perception can change. Fast forward 2 months and this debate has certainly changed....

After this debate, Torrealba has proceeded to hit .274/.328/.403 in June and .391/.451/.625 in a scorching July (with Tuesday's game still remaining in July)

For the season...the numbers now look like this:
.282/.345/.408 with a .753 OPS for Torrealba

Meanwhile Iannetta has gone hitless in 21 July ABs. His seasonal line now stands at .181/.302/.292

So where do we go from here? Torrealba is a free agent at year's end. Its pretty clear that Iannetta needs ABs, but with no canidates at AAA ready to make the majors, we're forced to keep him in the MLB because we are in the playoff hunt.

Both have proven to be above average defensive catchers this year. Am I the only one who thinks we should resign Torrealba and have him split time with Iannetta next year?

Roxpert · July 30th, 2007, 03:09 PM

The Rockies' insistence on making Torrealba the everyday catcher has turned out to help the team in the short-term, but could be costly to the development of Chris Iannetta in the long-term. I still say Iannetta should be playing on most days, and if it can't be with the big club, then they should have sent him back to AAA for everyday ABs.

Who knows.....IF they had given Iannetta the same chances they gave Torrealba this season, the production totals could be just the reverse of what they are. Iannetta could have found his groove and boosted his numbers well over what even Torrealba is doing right now.

In other words, production is sometimes a function of opportunity. Torrealba has had plenty of it, and Iannetta has had darn little, and is rusting on the bench. This could mean he will not develop as we had hoped.

WHY is it that the Dodgers always seem to come up with excellent catchers through their system, while we end up with busts?

Campanella
Roseboro
Ferguson
Yeager
Scioscia
Piazza
Lo Duca
Martin

And us? We don't come up with any, and when we do have a legitimate catching prospect, he doesn't get developed by the big league field management as he should.

BigRapidsJackass · July 30th, 2007, 05:07 PM

Torrealba's having a career year in his walk year. Yes, he has performed very nicely, particularly in the last couple months. He's probably a tick above league-average for a starting catcher when you adjust for park factor (unadjusted OPS+ of 92), and then you get to factor in his very good defense.

But signing a free agent who's just had his career year isn't necessarily a good idea. He'll do quite well on the market I suspect, and either you're going to commit to Iannetta or you're not. In a perfect world, we keep him. But in the real world, keeping him impairs our ability to keep or sign someone else. And since I'm still high on Iannetta (as I believe the Rox are, too), if Yorvit doesn't give us a home team discount, I think this is it for him as a Rockie.

sg8335aa · July 30th, 2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

Torrealba's having a career year in his walk year. Yes, he has performed very nicely, particularly in the last couple months. He's probably a tick above league-average for a starting catcher when you adjust for park factor (unadjusted OPS+ of 92), and then you get to factor in his very good defense.

But signing a free agent who's just had his career year isn't necessarily a good idea. He'll do quite well on the market I suspect, and either you're going to commit to Iannetta or you're not. In a perfect world, we keep him. But in the real world, keeping him impairs our ability to keep or sign someone else. And since I'm still high on Iannetta (as I believe the Rox are, too), if Yorvit doesn't give us a home team discount, I think this is it for him as a Rockie.

Honestly, unless Iannetta does something over these last 2 months that would drastically change my mind, I'd rather resign Torrealba to a reasonable contract just in case.

In doing some homework, I'd suspect that considering this has been Torrealba's first "big" year that he'd wouldn't be up for anything "crazy". I figured the last contracts that Greg Zaun and Brad Ausmus signed would be good comparables to get an idea of what Torrealba might cost. They both signed 2 year contracts for a total of $7.5 million (about $4 per year).

The next "tier" of catcher contracts come in at about 3 years for $5 per year. These guys include the likes of Paul LoDuca. Without the track record, I don't think Torrealba could pull in a contract like that.

So if the price is "only" a 2 year deal worth about $3.5 to $4 per year.....I'd have to sign you need to resign him.

Granted, Holliday will be into his 2nd year of arbitration while Atkins and Hawpe and Cook would be eligible for the first time.......with the recent attendance surge, there's no reason to think they can't keep everyone.

However......it will be a different story in a few years once they're eligible for free agency......but in the short term, at least through the first couple arbitration years, I seems reasonable.

BigRapidsJackass · July 30th, 2007, 09:26 PM

SG, they did the same thing with Carroll after his career year last season. And Carroll is a fine part-time infielder who isn't really nearly as good a hitter as he appeared to be last year, nor nearly as poor a hitter as he appeared to be from April-June this year. And I agree with you: I think Yorvit's in for about 2 years/$4 million. Not outrageous, but quite a luxury for what we'd anticipate to be a backup catcher on a cash-strapped club.

Why give up on Iannetta? He's 24 years old, has held his own defensively, and has all of 257 MLB plate appearances.

Iannetta will be fine. Although I don't think riding the bench this year has harmed his development, it hasn't exactly expedited it either. It's too late to send him down now to get playing time, but I wonder whether that would've made sense at the ASB.

Clubs like the Rockies need to trust their young players. They have a fine young catcher, so let him play next year. They don't have a fine young second baseman, so if you're going to spend discretionary money somewhere, that's where I'd be looking.

June 4th, 2007, 09:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
bedir than average Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Starbucks Posts: 8,258	So someone mentions a bunch of RBI in late game situations by Torrealba and I say to myself "Why not look up each guys WPA?" Rockies Stats - Win Probability \| Fan Graphs Ianetta is 6th on the team with a .34 Torrealba is 2nd to last with a -.98 Unless Ianetta is one of the worst denfensive catchers in the league he should be the primary catcher __________________ I'm sorry I left for a while. I needed a vaction, and then work changed substantially. I'm over 50 hour weeks, plus two hours a day of commuting time. A few weeks ago I launched my own blog about Seattle Sounders FC and Life in Puget Sound. I won't be by these parts often as my focus has changed. Sorry about the unannounced retirement.

July 30th, 2007, 03:09 PM	#27 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	The Rockies' insistence on making Torrealba the everyday catcher has turned out to help the team in the short-term, but could be costly to the development of Chris Iannetta in the long-term. I still say Iannetta should be playing on most days, and if it can't be with the big club, then they should have sent him back to AAA for everyday ABs. Who knows.....IF they had given Iannetta the same chances they gave Torrealba this season, the production totals could be just the reverse of what they are. Iannetta could have found his groove and boosted his numbers well over what even Torrealba is doing right now. In other words, production is sometimes a function of opportunity. Torrealba has had plenty of it, and Iannetta has had darn little, and is rusting on the bench. This could mean he will not develop as we had hoped. WHY is it that the Dodgers always seem to come up with excellent catchers through their system, while we end up with busts? Campanella Roseboro Ferguson Yeager Scioscia Piazza Lo Duca Martin And us? We don't come up with any, and when we do have a legitimate catching prospect, he doesn't get developed by the big league field management as he should. Last edited by Roxpert; July 30th, 2007 at 03:13 PM.

June 4th, 2007, 02:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	So, SG, you are OK with Hurdle "cooling" off Iannetta and making it even harder for him to make consistent contact? It's the old Catch-22: Iannetta is sitting out 60% of the games because he is striking out too much, but he's making poor contact because he isn't seeing consistent action. And you just pointed out the higher walk-rate. What about the higher OPS overall, despite the higher K-rate? Why on earth would you care about a higher K-rate when that same player is getting on base so much more, and showing more isolated power? Absolutely nothing in their relative performance to each other would justify Torrealba getting a 55% share of the combined total plate appearances, especially given that Iannetta was ordained this year's starting catcher and has been healthy. Can Hurdle do no wrong in your mind???

June 4th, 2007, 03:45 PM	#17 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	iannetta also has a higher OBP and a higher SLG.

June 4th, 2007, 06:42 PM	#18 (permalink)
Dante Bichette Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 272	I Really think that Torealba is slightly better at this point. Not much, but slightly better. However, considering that Ianetta is a young player with some upside while Torealbe has maxed out as a major leaguer, I agree that Ianetta should be getting more starts and at bats. I think a 50/50 platoon is in order for now until one gets hot at the plate or begins to distinguish himself. If neither does, Hurdle should still give more at bats to Ianetta as the season moves along because of his age and potential.

June 4th, 2007, 08:38 PM	#19 (permalink)
Rankal Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 84	I have to agree with DB. I think Torrealba, as much as I hate to say it, is better offensively than Chris Iannetta. And I'm going off the samples that we've seen this season so far. If you have runners at 2nd and 3rd, 1 out, and have to pick between Iannetta and Torrealba, who do you pick? Right now, I'd have to pick Torrealba. Iannetta is going to continue to struggle because he's trying so hard to "win back" the starting job that he's having poor ballgames pushing himself too hard. Yes, Hurdle needs to say "Chris, you're my guy for the next 7 games. Let's see what you can do." But will he? No. Because then he can't screw up ballgames like he loves to do with his micro-managing.

June 4th, 2007, 08:51 PM	#20 (permalink)
RMF Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 206	I think part of what we're seeing is a style prejudice. Clint Hurdle tells the hitters that they need to be more patient but he doesn't mean it. Chris Iannetta see's plenty of pitches. I think his strikeouts will be a nice investment for the future. He's got to see the pitchers in order to beat them. That's his style. He's overmatched sometimes right now. But he's got much more upside than Torrealba. And he's not going to grow unless he gets to face everyone. Hurdle may preach patience on the surface but he's always been a swing early and often guy. That just isn't Iannetta's style. This is just totally botched and I really hope that O'dowd gets rid of Torrealba. These are the things that the Rockies do wrong and over time it really ads up. Instead of Iannetta developing this season he's going to have to develop next season. The team isn't worse with him behind the plate. In fact he's one small hitting streak away from being significantly better. Hurdle please remove Torrealba's balls from your chin.

June 4th, 2007, 09:38 PM	#22 (permalink)
HoyaRoxFan Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 305	Not having any numbers to base such a claim on, my eye says Yorvit plays like an average catcher - nothing remarkable, nothing particularly stupid. When he's in the game, I tend to forget about the catcher altogether. I've seen Iannetta be a bit more animated in a good way, making some good catches, keeping control of the game, and I'd like to see more of what the kid can do with the bat. I wonder though if we know what the pitchers' preferences are... have Iannetta's starts matched up with a particular SP vs. Yorvit's starts?

June 5th, 2007, 08:23 PM	#25 (permalink)
Rankal Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 84	But Torrealba may hit 20 HR's! We have to give him the chance! (sarcasm) I've given up pushing for Iannetta. Only because I'm tired of being disappointed when I check the lineup.

July 30th, 2007, 02:27 PM	#26 (permalink)
sg8335aa Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 118	its funny how perception can change. Fast forward 2 months and this debate has certainly changed.... After this debate, Torrealba has proceeded to hit .274/.328/.403 in June and .391/.451/.625 in a scorching July (with Tuesday's game still remaining in July) For the season...the numbers now look like this: .282/.345/.408 with a .753 OPS for Torrealba Meanwhile Iannetta has gone hitless in 21 July ABs. His seasonal line now stands at .181/.302/.292 So where do we go from here? Torrealba is a free agent at year's end. Its pretty clear that Iannetta needs ABs, but with no canidates at AAA ready to make the majors, we're forced to keep him in the MLB because we are in the playoff hunt. Both have proven to be above average defensive catchers this year. Am I the only one who thinks we should resign Torrealba and have him split time with Iannetta next year?

July 30th, 2007, 05:07 PM	#28 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Torrealba's having a career year in his walk year. Yes, he has performed very nicely, particularly in the last couple months. He's probably a tick above league-average for a starting catcher when you adjust for park factor (unadjusted OPS+ of 92), and then you get to factor in his very good defense. But signing a free agent who's just had his career year isn't necessarily a good idea. He'll do quite well on the market I suspect, and either you're going to commit to Iannetta or you're not. In a perfect world, we keep him. But in the real world, keeping him impairs our ability to keep or sign someone else. And since I'm still high on Iannetta (as I believe the Rox are, too), if Yorvit doesn't give us a home team discount, I think this is it for him as a Rockie.

July 30th, 2007, 09:26 PM	#30 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	SG, they did the same thing with Carroll after his career year last season. And Carroll is a fine part-time infielder who isn't really nearly as good a hitter as he appeared to be last year, nor nearly as poor a hitter as he appeared to be from April-June this year. And I agree with you: I think Yorvit's in for about 2 years/$4 million. Not outrageous, but quite a luxury for what we'd anticipate to be a backup catcher on a cash-strapped club. Why give up on Iannetta? He's 24 years old, has held his own defensively, and has all of 257 MLB plate appearances. Iannetta will be fine. Although I don't think riding the bench this year has harmed his development, it hasn't exactly expedited it either. It's too late to send him down now to get playing time, but I wonder whether that would've made sense at the ASB. Clubs like the Rockies need to trust their young players. They have a fine young catcher, so let him play next year. They don't have a fine young second baseman, so if you're going to spend discretionary money somewhere, that's where I'd be looking.