The Official Cooler Controversy Game Thread

Roxpert · April 3rd, 2007, 02:16 PM

This thread will be updated as the year progresses, logging the games in which forum members have questioned Clint Hurdle's judgments and decisions which may have impacted the outcome of the game. This way, we can gauge the number of games in which The Cooler may have been at least partially to blame for a loss. For those who think this is unfair, this same thread could be used to log games in which Hurdle made a decision that may have contributed to a victory. Both sides of the ledger should be kept.

NO EDITORIALIZING OR ARGUING ALLOWED on this thread. Arguments and cases can be made, pro or con, on other threads. This thread is just a "repository" to log the Hurdle decisions that were discussed elsewhere. This way, we can keep track:

1. Game 1, April 2nd - Against the D-Backs, Hurdle took out an overpowering Manny Corpas after a 1-2-3 7th inning, only to see LaTroy Hawkins blow a 6-5 lead in the 8th inning. Also, he tried to use Willy Taveras to bunt runners on 1st and 2nd in the 8th inning, even with 2 strikes, and he struck out for the fourth time in the game. Finally, Hurdle called two intentional walks in the game, one relatively early. Both runners scored, and 2 runs was the margin of victory. Rockies lost 8-6 on Opening Day in front of sellout crowd.

2. Game 6, April 8th - In San Diego, the Rockies couldn't protect 1-run late leads in two low scoring games over the weekend. In the series finale, with Khalil Greene at 3rd base and one out in the 10th inning, Hurdle opts to stick with reliever LaTroy Hawkins (who doesn't strike people out) and not walk the bases loaded. The following hitter got the game winning single with the drawn in infield. Brian Fuentes didn't appear in this game, or in the close loss the night before. If the bases had been loaded, Fuentes could come in and get the needed K against a likely lefthanded pinch hitter, or a force at the plate, and we may have survived to the 11th inning. Another question is why Fuentes would not be used to start the 10th inning instead of Hawkins. Bud Black used closer Trevor Hoffman in both games, with the game tied. Hurdle chose to save his closer for a series in Los Angeles instead, and had to accept the two late and close losses. Those were the probable outcomes regardless, but it should be noted that the team that used its best reliever twice did win twice.

3. Game 33, May 8th - In St. Louis, Taylor Buchholz (who wasn't on a pitch count) threw an effective 6 innings of shutout ball, allowing only 4 hits and a walk with his 71 pitches, and carrying a 1-0 lead into the 7th inning. Instead of letting Buchholz pitch the bottom of the 7th, Hurdle pulls him for pinch hitter Jeff Baker (he, of the 1 for 30-something) even though there was one out and nobody on base and we are shorthanded in the bullpen. Denny Baustista loaded the bases with one out in the 7th, was relieved by minor leaguer fill-in Alberto Arias, who promptly allowed a double, single, and 4 runs to score. I thought The Cooler would at least allow Bautista a chance to get himself out of his own jam, since he throws 97 MPH and can ring up a strikeout. But NOooooo.......Hurdle has to make all the wrong pitching decisions in this game, and we lose 4-1. It didn't help that we managed only 1 run off of a fill-in starting pitcher, but The Cooler could have helped by starting Iannetta instead of Torrealba for the 2nd straight night.

CSM · April 3rd, 2007, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roxpert

1. Game 1, April 2nd - Against the D-Backs, Hurdle took out an overpowering Manny Corpas after a 1-2-3 7th inning, only to see LaTroy Hawkins blow a 6-5 lead in the 8th inning. Also, he tried to use Willy Taveras to bunt runners on 1st and 2nd in the 8th inning, even with 2 strikes, and he struck out for the fourth time in the game. Finally, Hurdle called two intentional walks in the game, one relatively early. Both runners scored, and 2 runs was the margin of victory. Rockies lost 8-6 on Opening Day in front of sellout crowd.

In Hurdle’s post-game interview yesterday, he claimed it was Taveras' decision to bunt with two strikes.

Roxpert · April 3rd, 2007, 04:14 PM

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

BigRapidsJackass · April 8th, 2007, 07:35 PM

Watching tonight's espn Red Sox - Rangers game:

Sox up 3-1, bottom 8.

Rangers load 'em up. Score one run on a fielder's choice. Runners at first and third, one run game, one out.

This is the game. This is the "save," as Jon Miller says. And Francona brings in Papelbon. Two quick out, including a K of Michael Young where Young looks completely overmatched.

Just remember that bullpen usage next time you see Fuentes down in the pen in a critical 8th inning situation ...

EDIT: And now in the top of the 9th, the Rangers -- TRAILING by a run -- bring in Otsuka, the closer, to get a critical out with Manny at the plate. Again: THE CLOSER coming in with his club trailing.

I'm seeing a lot more flexibility in bullpen use in a lot of places; sadly, Denver is not one of those places.

Roxpert · April 8th, 2007, 09:30 PM

Jackass, it's a very nice observation, but doesn't belong in this thread. Remember, no editorializing here.

Having said that, I have something to post on another thread which will result in an update to this thread's original post.

indianadrew · April 27th, 2007, 09:47 PM

roxpert,

i hope this qualifies.

francis was dinged for 2 runs in the 5th.
after one visit he stays out, no more damage.
rockies put runners on with 2 outs jeff francis comes to the plate, whereby he dribbles one up the middle.
hurdle should have pinch hit for francis(who already had 80 pitches) in the bottom of the 5th, posibly bringing in corpas in the 6th.
instead he brings in speier, who will be ready next year.
this decision could have cost us the game.

Roxpert · April 27th, 2007, 10:54 PM

Drew, I'd say this is a very marginal call. There was only 1 runner on first base when Francis hit. Based on how our bullpen subsequently did, I think you can't fault Hurdle for trying to squeeze one more inning out of Jeff. We have the worst bottom 4 relievers of any bullpen in baseball right now.

I'd give Hurdle a break on this one.

indianadrew · April 27th, 2007, 11:04 PM

i thought there was 2 men on, but i have been drinking, so i was mistaken. i just cant understand why he didn't pinch hit for francis. he did end up comming out early in the 6th, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20.
at the very best i would say that was a questionable call not to pinch hit for him.

wolf213 · May 5th, 2007, 11:26 AM

Not too sure why someone hasn't brought this up, but this is a classic Cooler move.

Bottom of tenth, 2 on no outs (or one out out I don't remember) Hawpe up to bat. With the bash brother dual of Torri and Q! behind Hawpe, what would be a smart move? Let Hawpe try to get the ball in play and get a hit somewhere? 29 other managers would've done that, but not our Hurdle.

He has Hawpe try (key word try) to bunt the two runners over, so Torri and Q! could try to bring them in.

Does this make since to you? First of all Hawpe isn't a good bunter, he's the last guy you want bunting in that situation, chances where better he gets a hit then lays down a good bunt. And if he does somehow get a bunt down, does anyone thing Torri or Q has a good shot at hitting them in?

Nope we waste an at bat and move the game to another inning.

Classic Hurdle there.

DieHardRoxFan · May 5th, 2007, 10:18 PM

The Cooler did the same thing in a game last year with Hawpe. Hawpe was asked to bunt 3 times in the minors. This is the classic example of not putting a player in the best position to succeed. Even Jeff Huson who never says anything critical didn't like that move. Hurdle as usual got all surly when asked about it at the press conference.

BigRapidsJackass · May 6th, 2007, 10:37 PM

Over at The Book blog, MGL nicely sums up the Hawpe bunting thing:

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/inde...edux/#comments

Quote:

Now, all managers I would think know that a sac bunt attempt is always a marginal strategy. By that I mean that they all know that bunting or not bunting in ANY situation is NEVER the clearly correct play. Given that, WHY would a manager elect to bunt someone who does not bunt well? It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that if bunting is probably around as good as not bunting in the first place, then if the batter is a bad bunter, it is ALWAYS a bad play to have him bunt?

Actually, I think I know the reason, especially after listening to the announcers after Haupt’s failed bunt attempt (and then K’ing). Rather than question the decision of the manager (why ask someone to do something that he is not capable of?), they said something like, “How can a major league athlete not be able to lay down a bunt?” So, the reason is…

If the manager does NOT bunt and nothing good happens, HE gets criticized. If he calls for a bunt and the bunt does not go well, the BATTER gets criticized. So the bottom line is that the manager is sacrificing his team’s chances of winning because he is a chicken****!

I think MGL has a point ...

hiaspire · May 6th, 2007, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

I think MGL has a point ...

I disagree. Bunting is not the most difficult challenge facing mankind. Most managers reasonably view it as a fundamental task that should be much less difficult to make contact than swinging away and getting a hit. Players who can't even get a bunt down SHOULD rightfully be criticized. Of all the tasks within the game of baseball, it is near the bottom in terms of difficulty at the plate.

BigRapidsJackass · May 6th, 2007, 11:39 PM

Aspire, both points are correct:

1. Every position player should have a basic aptitude at bunting. After all, it's taught over and over and over again from high school on. Even if Hawpe doesn't get called on to bunt in games very often, he certainly goes through bunting drills every spring.

2. Every manager should know his own players and their weaknesses. Saying "Any major league position player should be able to get down a bunt" is a cop out. Hurdle knows by know that regardless of where fault lies (don't they drill him enough on it? Is he just too proud to try?), Hawpe simply is inept at bunting. It's like leaving Shaq out there on the floor with 20 seconds left, Miami inbounding the ball with a 3-point lead. Yeah, every professional basketball player should be able to hit 70% of his free throws, but we've got to live in the real world here.

So MGL does have a point. In general, if Hawpe blows the bunt Hawpe gets blamed. If Hurdle doesn't have Hawpe bunt and Hawpe grounds into a doubleplay, Hurdle gets blamed.

hiaspire · May 7th, 2007, 01:42 AM

He can have a point, and I can still disagree with it. Fundamentals like bunting are drilled over and over as you mention from day one of their career, and managers expect that such basics are not too much to ask in the interest of team advancement. The free throw comparison is interesting, but basketball coaches don't choose to go for a free throw versus a regular shot as a baseball manager does for a bunt strategically. If a basketball coach COULD pick either two free throws or a regular play in a critical moment to get the needed 2 points, they'd probably go for the free throws even without a complete guarantee of sinking the shots from the charity stripe.

Just as there is a wide variety of skill in free throw percentage, there are some exceptional bunters in baseball and some bad ones. However, a sac bunt doesn't have to be a swish or perfectly placed with great skill. It pretty much just has to be put into play.

A manager has more control over team-oriented strategic moves versus putting it all on one player to deliver individually. It involves tactical maneuvers that they can coach toward, and orders they can give and reasonably demand will be completed without much excuses excepted. The overall strategy is much more team than individual oriented from the dugout.

I think the fundamental nature of the play is far more significant in the thought process at the time in critical moments versus a scheme to avoid press criticism -- especially in Hurdle's case where he doesn't get much of that anyway as everyone points out and the team often doesn't do what most fans are yelling for anyway. They do things their own way, as unpopular as that usually is on Blake Street.

In all sports there are conventional wisdom guidelines. Football coaches refer to a chart often before deciding whether to go for a two-point conversion or not. In all sports where decisions must be made in split seconds, I think it is quite reasonable that there would be a default position that would get the most consideration and become the baseline position to work from. I don't think such conventional wisdom is primarily to avoid press criticism, but that's one way to look at it if you wanted to apply a negative aspect to a manager's choices.

It probably is safer in some ways to follow that common line of thinking instead of straying too far into the unusual decision at such times (especially when not a lot of time for weighing choices), but I think that is mostly because most managers believe that there are good reasons for such conventional wisdom thinking in trying to win games.

BigRapidsJackass · May 7th, 2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

The free throw comparison is interesting, but basketball coaches don't choose to go for a free throw versus a regular shot as a baseball manager does for a bunt strategically. If a basketball coach COULD pick either two free throws or a regular play in a critical moment to get the needed 2 points, they'd probably go for the free throws even without a complete guarantee of sinking the shots from the charity stripe.

Aspire, you seem to have completely missed my point.

In my example, the Miami Heat are up 3 points with 20 seconds left and thus they can simply hold the ball and run out the clock. The opposing team has to foul if they have a chance to win. And you don't send your worst free throw shooter out there in that situation.

Therefore, I think my analogy is apt. And I guess if you're going to bunt and you have the otherwise useless Omar Quinitanilla on the bench, you might as well use him in this situation.

April 3rd, 2007, 02:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	The Official Cooler Controversy Game Thread This thread will be updated as the year progresses, logging the games in which forum members have questioned Clint Hurdle's judgments and decisions which may have impacted the outcome of the game. This way, we can gauge the number of games in which The Cooler may have been at least partially to blame for a loss. For those who think this is unfair, this same thread could be used to log games in which Hurdle made a decision that may have contributed to a victory. Both sides of the ledger should be kept. NO EDITORIALIZING OR ARGUING ALLOWED on this thread. Arguments and cases can be made, pro or con, on other threads. This thread is just a "repository" to log the Hurdle decisions that were discussed elsewhere. This way, we can keep track: 1. Game 1, April 2nd - Against the D-Backs, Hurdle took out an overpowering Manny Corpas after a 1-2-3 7th inning, only to see LaTroy Hawkins blow a 6-5 lead in the 8th inning. Also, he tried to use Willy Taveras to bunt runners on 1st and 2nd in the 8th inning, even with 2 strikes, and he struck out for the fourth time in the game. Finally, Hurdle called two intentional walks in the game, one relatively early. Both runners scored, and 2 runs was the margin of victory. Rockies lost 8-6 on Opening Day in front of sellout crowd. 2. Game 6, April 8th - In San Diego, the Rockies couldn't protect 1-run late leads in two low scoring games over the weekend. In the series finale, with Khalil Greene at 3rd base and one out in the 10th inning, Hurdle opts to stick with reliever LaTroy Hawkins (who doesn't strike people out) and not walk the bases loaded. The following hitter got the game winning single with the drawn in infield. Brian Fuentes didn't appear in this game, or in the close loss the night before. If the bases had been loaded, Fuentes could come in and get the needed K against a likely lefthanded pinch hitter, or a force at the plate, and we may have survived to the 11th inning. Another question is why Fuentes would not be used to start the 10th inning instead of Hawkins. Bud Black used closer Trevor Hoffman in both games, with the game tied. Hurdle chose to save his closer for a series in Los Angeles instead, and had to accept the two late and close losses. Those were the probable outcomes regardless, but it should be noted that the team that used its best reliever twice did win twice. 3. Game 33, May 8th - In St. Louis, Taylor Buchholz (who wasn't on a pitch count) threw an effective 6 innings of shutout ball, allowing only 4 hits and a walk with his 71 pitches, and carrying a 1-0 lead into the 7th inning. Instead of letting Buchholz pitch the bottom of the 7th, Hurdle pulls him for pinch hitter Jeff Baker (he, of the 1 for 30-something) even though there was one out and nobody on base and we are shorthanded in the bullpen. Denny Baustista loaded the bases with one out in the 7th, was relieved by minor leaguer fill-in Alberto Arias, who promptly allowed a double, single, and 4 runs to score. I thought The Cooler would at least allow Bautista a chance to get himself out of his own jam, since he throws 97 MPH and can ring up a strikeout. But NOooooo.......Hurdle has to make all the wrong pitching decisions in this game, and we lose 4-1. It didn't help that we managed only 1 run off of a fill-in starting pitcher, but The Cooler could have helped by starting Iannetta instead of Torrealba for the 2nd straight night. Last edited by Roxpert; May 9th, 2007 at 10:28 AM.

April 8th, 2007, 07:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Watching tonight's espn Red Sox - Rangers game: Sox up 3-1, bottom 8. Rangers load 'em up. Score one run on a fielder's choice. Runners at first and third, one run game, one out. This is the game. This is the "save," as Jon Miller says. And Francona brings in Papelbon. Two quick out, including a K of Michael Young where Young looks completely overmatched. Just remember that bullpen usage next time you see Fuentes down in the pen in a critical 8th inning situation ... EDIT: And now in the top of the 9th, the Rangers -- TRAILING by a run -- bring in Otsuka, the closer, to get a critical out with Manny at the plate. Again: THE CLOSER coming in with his club trailing. I'm seeing a lot more flexibility in bullpen use in a lot of places; sadly, Denver is not one of those places. Last edited by BigRapidsJackass; April 8th, 2007 at 07:38 PM.

April 8th, 2007, 09:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Not in this thread.... Jackass, it's a very nice observation, but doesn't belong in this thread. Remember, no editorializing here. Having said that, I have something to post on another thread which will result in an update to this thread's original post.

April 27th, 2007, 09:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	4-27-07 roxpert, i hope this qualifies. francis was dinged for 2 runs in the 5th. after one visit he stays out, no more damage. rockies put runners on with 2 outs jeff francis comes to the plate, whereby he dribbles one up the middle. hurdle should have pinch hit for francis(who already had 80 pitches) in the bottom of the 5th, posibly bringing in corpas in the 6th. instead he brings in speier, who will be ready next year. this decision could have cost us the game. Last edited by indianadrew; April 27th, 2007 at 09:55 PM.

April 27th, 2007, 11:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	i thought there was 2 men on, but i have been drinking, so i was mistaken. i just cant understand why he didn't pinch hit for francis. he did end up comming out early in the 6th, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. at the very best i would say that was a questionable call not to pinch hit for him. Last edited by indianadrew; April 28th, 2007 at 01:54 PM.

April 3rd, 2007, 04:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Interesting. Thanks for the information.

April 27th, 2007, 10:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Drew, I'd say this is a very marginal call. There was only 1 runner on first base when Francis hit. Based on how our bullpen subsequently did, I think you can't fault Hurdle for trying to squeeze one more inning out of Jeff. We have the worst bottom 4 relievers of any bullpen in baseball right now. I'd give Hurdle a break on this one.

May 5th, 2007, 11:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 197	Not too sure why someone hasn't brought this up, but this is a classic Cooler move. Bottom of tenth, 2 on no outs (or one out out I don't remember) Hawpe up to bat. With the bash brother dual of Torri and Q! behind Hawpe, what would be a smart move? Let Hawpe try to get the ball in play and get a hit somewhere? 29 other managers would've done that, but not our Hurdle. He has Hawpe try (key word try) to bunt the two runners over, so Torri and Q! could try to bring them in. Does this make since to you? First of all Hawpe isn't a good bunter, he's the last guy you want bunting in that situation, chances where better he gets a hit then lays down a good bunt. And if he does somehow get a bunt down, does anyone thing Torri or Q has a good shot at hitting them in? Nope we waste an at bat and move the game to another inning. Classic Hurdle there.

May 5th, 2007, 10:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
DieHardRoxFan Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 153	The Cooler did the same thing in a game last year with Hawpe. Hawpe was asked to bunt 3 times in the minors. This is the classic example of not putting a player in the best position to succeed. Even Jeff Huson who never says anything critical didn't like that move. Hurdle as usual got all surly when asked about it at the press conference.

May 6th, 2007, 11:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Aspire, both points are correct: 1. Every position player should have a basic aptitude at bunting. After all, it's taught over and over and over again from high school on. Even if Hawpe doesn't get called on to bunt in games very often, he certainly goes through bunting drills every spring. 2. Every manager should know his own players and their weaknesses. Saying "Any major league position player should be able to get down a bunt" is a cop out. Hurdle knows by know that regardless of where fault lies (don't they drill him enough on it? Is he just too proud to try?), Hawpe simply is inept at bunting. It's like leaving Shaq out there on the floor with 20 seconds left, Miami inbounding the ball with a 3-point lead. Yeah, every professional basketball player should be able to hit 70% of his free throws, but we've got to live in the real world here. So MGL does have a point. In general, if Hawpe blows the bunt Hawpe gets blamed. If Hurdle doesn't have Hawpe bunt and Hawpe grounds into a doubleplay, Hurdle gets blamed.

May 7th, 2007, 01:42 AM	#14 (permalink)
hiaspire Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 481	He can have a point, and I can still disagree with it. Fundamentals like bunting are drilled over and over as you mention from day one of their career, and managers expect that such basics are not too much to ask in the interest of team advancement. The free throw comparison is interesting, but basketball coaches don't choose to go for a free throw versus a regular shot as a baseball manager does for a bunt strategically. If a basketball coach COULD pick either two free throws or a regular play in a critical moment to get the needed 2 points, they'd probably go for the free throws even without a complete guarantee of sinking the shots from the charity stripe. Just as there is a wide variety of skill in free throw percentage, there are some exceptional bunters in baseball and some bad ones. However, a sac bunt doesn't have to be a swish or perfectly placed with great skill. It pretty much just has to be put into play. A manager has more control over team-oriented strategic moves versus putting it all on one player to deliver individually. It involves tactical maneuvers that they can coach toward, and orders they can give and reasonably demand will be completed without much excuses excepted. The overall strategy is much more team than individual oriented from the dugout. I think the fundamental nature of the play is far more significant in the thought process at the time in critical moments versus a scheme to avoid press criticism -- especially in Hurdle's case where he doesn't get much of that anyway as everyone points out and the team often doesn't do what most fans are yelling for anyway. They do things their own way, as unpopular as that usually is on Blake Street. In all sports there are conventional wisdom guidelines. Football coaches refer to a chart often before deciding whether to go for a two-point conversion or not. In all sports where decisions must be made in split seconds, I think it is quite reasonable that there would be a default position that would get the most consideration and become the baseline position to work from. I don't think such conventional wisdom is primarily to avoid press criticism, but that's one way to look at it if you wanted to apply a negative aspect to a manager's choices. It probably is safer in some ways to follow that common line of thinking instead of straying too far into the unusual decision at such times (especially when not a lot of time for weighing choices), but I think that is mostly because most managers believe that there are good reasons for such conventional wisdom thinking in trying to win games. Last edited by hiaspire; May 7th, 2007 at 01:56 AM.