14Ks, LaTroy Meltdown

[DieHardRoxFan]

Glad to see the big off season pick-up looking good.

[Roxpert]

Gladder to see that The Cooler is off to a quick start. Corpas dominated the 7th inning, only needing about 10 pitches. Oh, but Hawkins is "our 8th inning guy", so we HAVE to go to him in the 8th. Sellout crowd be damned.

One "Hurdle loss" out of one game is indeed the fastest start he's ever had. I say Charlie should givre Clint a LIFETIME extension. Yipeee!

[BigRapidsJackass]

Just got home from this one.

You called it, Roxpert. Corpas looked super ... 10 pitch 1-2-3 inning with some nasty stuff.

But would he come out for the 8th? Hell, no! That would mess with Clint Hurdle's Bullpen Management Scheme. LaTroy Hawkins makes 3.5 million bucks just to pitch the 8th when we're ahead!

The most inexplicable thing of all: Hawkins actually looked o.k. at the start. Then he went 0-2 and .... THREW A FASTBALL RIGHT DOWN THE MIDDLE. It was crushed, and that was the game. I thought "veteran presence" was all about "knowing how to pitch" and not grooving one on an 0-2 count.

And did anyone notice the return of the Bunt Hungry Maniac? Runners on 1st and 2nd, bottom of the 8th. Veteran Presence A (Steve Finley) had worked Lyons for a walk. Willy T. up ... bunting. Which he continues to do: foul, foul, then shows bunt and takes a called 3rd strike. So much for "not giving up outs this year." Of course, this also demonstrates the problem of having a Willy T. -- he's such a pathetic hitter that even a sensible manager might consider having him bunt in this situation.

Oh, and then Ramon Ramirez comes in and mows 'em down when it's too late to matter.

So let's recap:

Veteran Presence A (Finley): did his job
Veteran Presence B (Mabry): did not play. Instead, Jeff Baker got the pinch hitting opportunity ... against a righthander.
Veteran Presence C, Bullpen Edition (Hawkins): lost the opener for us

Young and Untested Player A (Iannetta): nice at bats, timely hit, and threw out a runner
Young and Untested Player B (Tulo): nice glove work and a couple hits
Young and Untested Player C (Baker): 415 ft HR
Young and Untested Player D, Bullpen Edition (Corpas): lights out
Young and Untested Player E, Bullpen Edition, who was Saved By a Timely Pull 'o the Martin Groin (Ramirez): lights out.

EDIT: thinking about it, that Tavares bunting thing was really stupid. Mabry was sitting on the bench, and Finley (on 1st) was available to play CF in the double switch. 1st and 2nd, nobody out, Rox need those 2 runs to tie. You're up against Brandon Lyons; if you don't tie, Valverde has the 9th. What exactly are you saving Mabry for? If Mabry doesn't hit now, his next opportunity would come the next time the leadoff spot comes around (which would become the pitcher's slot). So I guess Hurdle is thinking: "what if we tie the game and go to extra innings? I'll need Mabry in the 11th." Really, why else would you let a guy like Tavares hit. Tavares in this situation is like having the pitcher hit. He's not bunting because it's good strategy; he bunting because Hurdle is trying to avoid a completely unproductive at-bat like a strikeout. And a strikeout is what he got anyway.

[Roxpert]

Jackass, how about those two IW's that turned into two runs, the margin of victory? The Book says you don't IW someone unless the following hitter is far inferior the the one being walked. It also says you don't IW someone with one out, especially in the early or middle innings. Hurdle has shown once again that he's in midseason form in April!

[BigRapidsJackass]

Roxpert, that's right, too.

And see my edit about Mabry. If he's going to be on the roster, you better use him.

[Roxpert]

Yeah, I was thinking maybe Mabry should have pinch hit for Taveras. Since Finley was in the game, he was going to take over CF anyway, so why not get Mabry going with a PH appearance against the righty Lyon? A 3-run shot would have been nice. Instead we got the Golden Sombrero for Willy while squaring up to bunt. Seems kinda wimpy of them.

[Dante Bichette]

I made the exact comments some of you are making in the thread about Hurdle and O'Dowd's extensions. I thought I was the only one.

Both were on display today. Hurdle for his game management decisions, all of which failed, and O'Dowd for the 3.5 he spent on Hawkins.

We have AT LEAST 3 more years of this to look forward too. Our only hope is that the Monforts sell the club and the next owner cleans house, even if he has to pay O'Dowd and Monfort, which of course is a huge longshot but is our only hope of avoiding 3 more years of this.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Bichette, you beat me to the punch. The worst of O'Dowd and Hurdle both on display today.

On another point: we just finished talking about defense on another thread. Today we saw how it is so difficult to measure good/bad defense.

Case in point: Holliday's ill-advised throw home in that fateful 7th inning. This time, he was charged with an error for letting the runner on first advance. But boneheaded plays like that don't usually show up in the defensive metrics. Even if the throw had been accurate, the runner likely would've made it to second base.

Atkins also had a very rough day in the field.

Hey, we get Livan Hernandez tomorrow. I see a big rebound.

[hiaspire]

Let the over-reactions begin.

Looking at the actual players on the field instead, Cook certainly didn't come out of the gate strongly for us and that is disappointing. Fortunately they got those runs back, but hopefully the NL West doesn't continue this pattern against him. Hurdle, this; Hurdle, that; Hurdle everything. The players are on the field not the dugout, and Cook wanted this start but didn't make much of it. That is a much more important factor today. We need to get solid starting pitching with an offense that will better support them this year. If we don't, it doesn't make a lick of difference who is sitting on their butt on the bench away from the field.

Last time I looked, you also wanted your best defensive players late on the field in tight games. I don't think they'll be switching to Finley in the OF over Taveras nor should they. Willie had an up-and-down day getting off to a great start to spark the offense's early answer to falling behind, but didn't get the job done himself at that critical moment. It doesn't sound like he got a good call there either. But give the players some accountability on the actual field.

Hawkins was signed on to this setup role by the great O'Dowd and paid quite well for it. It would be foolish of fans to believe they aren't going to at least start with allowing him to earn that responsibility. There is nothing illogical about that in the least bit. That's what they got him for in O'Dowd's personnel judgement.

Just like Brad Lidge blowing the game late in a relief role today, those things are going to happen. And not just to us. Hopefully Hawkins doesn't have as many of those, but certainly not the best start for him in fulfilling that responsibility he was paid to serve. Outside of taking one game out of proportions, down the road a couple of weeks I think Hawkins will be looking fairly solid overall. If he isn't, one of the young guys will have his spot. But it isn't going to be from day 1, and there is no reason for a fan to expect as much based on the personnel investment in a new setup guy. It is on the player to get the job done there in the role they got him for, or changes will be made. But not before you've even finished 1/162th of the season.

[HoyaRoxFan]

Hope you're right, aspire. Something about "small sample sizes" and the importance of "this is why there are 162 games." I note we're not complaining too loudly about Garrett Atkins coming out and showing with his stat line today why he's such a stud...

Nevertheless, it is not at all inappropriately ironic that a series of moves on Hurdle's part come on the day he's endorsed so emphatically...

Ah well, tomorrow we see Francis... (whatever happened to his suspension?)

[BigRapidsJackass]

Aspire, I like your characterization of Willy T's day: "up and down."

4 Ks from the leadoff spot and I'm ready to buy Cory Sullivan a bus ticket from the Springs. I'll even buy Clint Barmes an OF glove. Seriously, Willy did not get the bat on the ball today other than a couple foul bunt attempts. I'm not kidding. His bat did not touch the ball on a single swing. Really, I hope Willy pulls it together. But I honestly believe this year's CF solution (perhaps a stopgap, maybe more) is named Ryan Spilborghs.

I don't understand your retort about Hawkins. You say Hurdle used him because that's why O'Dowd signed him. Right. And that's why everyone here is criticizing the dysfunctional siamese twins, Clint and Danny. We'd kind of like to have one guy in a leadership role who makes better personnel decisions and game-time substitutions. We don't, and we won't until 2010 apparently.

I will grant you this: Hawkins showed pretty good stuff. He threw hard, and exhibited a nice cut fastball that tails into LH hitters. But the kicker is this: he was acquired because he's a 10-year veteran who has had success in this role. And I hate to say it (because he seems like an awfully nice guy): he's a proven loser. He cracked under pressure in Chicago, and he came in today falling behind 3-0 to rookie Chris Young, and then promptly fell behind Cory Snyder. He had the 7-8-9 (pinch hitter) to get today, and he wasn't ready. Sorry, but that's his history. It's something he has in common with BK Kim (remember the World Series? remember the stint with the Red Sox?) and Jeremy Affeldt (the enigmatic power lefty with overpowering stuff who wilts in competition?), not to mention Kaz Matsui (the third best position player ever to come out of Japan who forced the Mets to eat $6 million of salary because he was such a mental wreck). How about Rodrigo Lopez, who pitched like crap last year and blamed everyone from Mazzone to his teammates for his problems? There's leadership for you.

The Heltonfans of the world would excoriate me for making such a subjective, fundametally anti-statistical comment. But there you have it. We acquired "veteran leadership" for the bullpen in the form of 3 guys who are classic chokers. I kind of thought the veteran leadership concept meant getting guys who have been there before and have nerves of steel.

In Dan-O-Clint World, "Veteran Leaders" are acquired to show the youngsters how to crack under pressure.

[hiaspire]

... and I'm ready to wait for more than 1 game.

I don't think those guys are as much chokers as they were just "available" veterans for one reason or another -- mostly because they aren't amongst the very elite untouchables but still show flashes of ability to harness. There are lots of guys like that in the majors who go from one team to another. Hawkins has more ability, as you mention with his stuff, than most we've had recently.

I saw that Carpenter allowed 9 hits and 5 ER in 6 IP, and Pujols didn't get a hit on opening day. What a bunch of losers! Nah... just early. Breathe in, breathe out... Another game tomorrow boys and 160 more.

[BigRapidsJackass]

No, I'm not overreacting.

I really like Corpas, I quite like Ramirez, and a kind of like Ryan Speier. I'd like to see those guys work the important innings. Did you notice what the D'backs did this year? No Jason Grimsley and Terry Mulholland types in their pen anymore. And their pen was pretty excellent today.

EDIT: Watching the espn Rangers-Angels game. Scioscia actually let Justin Speier go TWO INNINGS as a set-up guy. Good lord, Mike, won't that mess up your bullpen for, like, the next two months. Imagine that! A guy who's throwing really well actually pitches TWO FULL INNINGS. ON a completely unrelated note, Mike Scioscia has a World Series ring. Clint Hurdle finished fourth one year.

I'm just saying I've always been one of those "veteran leadership" skeptics. I'm not really sure there is such a thing. But assuming there is, you'd want a guy like Finley, who's played on a World Championship team and a lot of winners. Guys like Jose Mesa (remembered for losing that big WS game for Cleveland and called a choker by Vizquel), Ray King (run out of St Louis because LaRussa couldn't stand him), Hawkins, and Affeldt don't exactly bring an aura of success to your team. And if that's the case, why not just let the young players have a chance? With this management, Fuentes would probably still be the "left handed specialist" if injuries hadn't driven the Hurdle to give him a shot at closing a couple years ago. Who knows, you may just find another winner out there, but you'll never know if every year brings a new parade of guys like Mesa and Hawkins.

[Roxpert]

Too bad we don't have Justin Speier, Jackass, instead of LaTroy Hawkins to handle our 8th innings. The reason, of course, is that "wily vets" like Hawkins and Mesa are available to US, and not Justin Speier, due to their pricetags.

Speier and his type are just out of our price range, while Mesa, Hawkins, and (before that) Todd Jones are relatively affordable, but still overpriced compared to better youngsters.

I agree that veteran leadership is overrated. Talent, and ability too pick up a K once in a while, is what makes for good 8th innings. Unfortunately, Hawkins has lost that K-pitch, and thus he fits in with us quite nicely.

It is only one game, but as I wrote before the season started, our bullpen could be our downfall this season. Or, at least the way Hurdle USES our 'pen could be our downfall.

[hiaspire]

The young Tigers staff probably disagrees with you guys about the importance of that issue in development.

Justin Speier WAS on our team. Who was the GM who traded him? I don't recall that being all about the money.

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

we just finished talking about defense on another thread. Today we saw how it is so difficult to measure good/bad defense.

Case in point: Holliday's ill-advised throw home in that fateful 7th inning. This time, he was charged with an error for letting the runner on first advance. But boneheaded plays like that don't usually show up in the defensive metrics. Even if the throw had been accurate, the runner likely would've made it to second base.

Atkins also had a very rough day in the field.

I'll definitely agree with you about the difficulty in measuring defense as described and in the examples that illustrate that. That's why there needs to be care IMO in not assigning too much value from those measurements.

Going into the day... heck, into the entire season... who are we relying upon most? Who do we need to come through? To Cook, add Holliday and Atkins as big opening day disappointments as mentioned. That's your two best hitters and supposed co-ace pitcher coming out flat. That's where you get the L more so than some of the other points being focused upon IMO. That's huge. We aren't going to win too many games where our top hitters have horrible games all around and our starter doesn't come through. That's the reality for the day, despite the insistance on focus elsewhere.

Failure today was largely in the core of the team they are counting on carrying them to improvement. That's where the biggest impact will be felt. Fortunately, though, it is just one day and there will be more to come for the impact players to actually do something (instead of nothing and avoiding all blame entirely).

On the positive side, Helton looked good at the plate today while the "better" bats weren't yet. We need Atkins and Holliday to be forces at the plate, but I think we'll see more and more days where those young guys need to keep pace with Helton. He'll be back I think without injury/sickness issues and something to prove. We could really start to do something if we can get all these guys on a roll together. I am less worried about Helton bouncing back than I am the younger guys repeating.