First dumb Hurdle move of the season....

[Roxpert]

Today, Jeff Francis got suspended for five games (and Hurdle for one) for retaliating against the Padres the other day. Brocail hit Matt Holliday after hitting Tulowitski a couple days earlier.

So the Numbnuts manager of ours has Francis become the enforcer??? Why? We surely have spare pitchers who could go into the game for the hit-job that we wouldn't mind being suspended.

Hurdle has to know the suspension ramifications of a move like that. Or maybe he doesn't. Does Clint Hurdle ever make a decision with any forethought in mind???

[wolf213]

I think the correct question is does Hurdle ever make a decision with any thought in mind period?

If our press was worth a dime Hurdle would be reamed a new ******* for this, instead he will go on and not a word of criticism will be shot his way.

[hiaspire]

We'd never have mindless allegations without evidence here, so I'll assume you were in the dugout and heard the manager order the pitch. Right?

Does that part of the game only apply to this team and this manager? Has nobody ever seen pitchers throw at hitters in retaliation before while things are testy on the field? Usually without any orders to do so. Most pitchers feel the need to protect their guys from the mound themselves as part of the game, out of respect (and to earn it) from their teammates in the field and in the dangerous batter's box.

[Roxpert]

Anyone who follows baseball a little bit knows that 90% of the time the retaliation pitch is ordered by the manager, ESPECIALLY in a meaningless spring training game. The way Hurdle immediately came out to jaw at the umpire about being tossed was a tipoff or "tell" that he was behind the whole retaliation thing in this instance. He was prepared for the whole confrontation. Also, don't forget that he was also suspended for one game, which is standard procedure simply because managers are behind these "enforcer" tactics almost all the time, and the league office knows this and disciplines managers when it happens.

The real question is why would any thinking fan be so quick to defend Clint Hurdle for an obvious move of retribution that cost his team one of his top two starters a turn in the rotation early in the season? This is indefensible, plain and simple. If Hurdle really wanted retribution, he could have done it with a minor league pitcher or fringe reliever after Francis was out of the game, not with Francis!

If you KNEW that Hurdle was behind this, woudn't you be angry? Or even if you thought odds were 90% he was, wouldn't you still be miffed? If not, then why not???

[hiaspire]

Any thinking fan who follows a young developing team would never call spring training meaningless. This team needs to develop a winning attitude and stand up for themselves with confidence. They aren't just a bunch of rookies anymore for veterans to take advantage of. They need to show a little toughness and that they have some fight in them. I don't find this something to get hysterical over and think it might be even positive in the long-run.

Anyone who follows baseball a little bit knows that 90% of the time the retaliation pitch is ordered by the manager

What a crock. Do you think Roger Clemens only throws at hitters if Phil Garner tells him to? Certainly it can happen either way, but sometimes things happen on the field and players take care of business. They aren't simulated players with some manager pushing keys to control them on a screen. They have emotions themselves.

Many pitchers feel the need to defend their teammates as part of the game. Their teammates usually expect their pitchers to have their backs.

[Heltonfan]

After one of your players gets plunked, you have two options:
1) Retaliate.
2) Move on and just play baseball.

Option #1 gives the opposition a free baserunner, to cancel out the one that they gave you, and risks suspensions. Option #2 leaves you in the black by a margin of one baserunner, and avoids any risk of disciplinary action. If you want to avenge your plunked teammate, the best way to do it is to follow up the HBP with a double into the gap and drive in the run. Winning > machismo. I'd much rather score runs than testosterone points. This isn't complicated.

And if other teams know that you won't retaliate, they'll be less likely to drill you in the first place (because, again, free baserunners are significant), so you avoid the whole problem.

I understand that the ethic we're talking about here is a deeply ingrained part of the game, and that Hurdle is no different from every other manager in playing along with it. But that doesn't mean that it isn't stupid. And playing along with it to the extent of risking a suspension to a top pitcher is dumber still.

Heck, it's not only dumb from that perspective, it's dumb from the perspective of how to best "teach a lesson." If you want to teach a lesson to the opposition, you don't have a curveball/change-up guy deliver the blow. You bring in Denny Bautista.

[indianadrew]

"Anyone who follows baseball a little bit knows that 90% of the time the retaliation pitch is ordered by the manager"

i follow baseball more than a little bit and i do not think that the manager orders "hits" on a batter 90% of the time. i do think that it probably comes from the dugout that often, but i have heard that it is more often other players requesting it.

[rockieprogress]

I'm with roxpert on this one.

We play the NLWest to open the season. It is vital that the team gets off to a strong start, and having your 2nd best SP lose a turn in the rotation is just plain stupid.

HF, Winning is about confidence.
Defending yourself lets the other team know that you aren't going to be pushed around, and getting hit twice by the same pitcher is one team trying to show the other team they are still he better team.
The only way the Rockies could let the Padres know they aren't impressed by them, was to retaliate.

BUT NOT IN THAT GAME after the warnings were issued. Do it the next game, at home, and open the game by plunking their LO man. Then when the umps give another warning, it would be the Padres that have the disadvantage.

And in the first game with them during the season, hit another LO batter to emphasize your point that you aren't going to be pushed around.

Winning the game only gives confidence to your team. Showing them you won't be pushed around earns respect from other teams.

There's a difference.

[Heltonfan]

Winning the game only gives confidence to your team. Showing them you won't be pushed around earns respect from other teams.

There's a difference.

Yes, there is. Confidence helps your team win games. Having other teams "respect" you doesn't.

The whole point here is that being "pushed around" doesn't hurt you any more than it hurts the team doing the pushing. If the Padres' method of showing that they're the better team involves plunking our guys rather than winning games, well, that's their problem. One hopes that they'll continue with that method into the regular season as well.

Seriously... the goal in baseball is to score and prevent runs. How the hell does it show that we're "impressed" by the other team if we choose not to participate in an activity that in no way contributes to the scoring and prevention of runs? This is why I despise this whole ethic: it draws focus away from the game itself. And that's not good for anyone.

And if you're going to plunk them, for God's sake, don't plunk the leadoff guy. Plunk a guy with two outs and nobody on.

[Rankal]

Sometimes mental confidence is important. If you've got a strong team atmosphere, you'll want to avenge one of your star players for getting plunked. I don't agree with it, but I don't think it's a huge tragedy that will cost the Rockies the season as some of you seem to be hinting at.

[hiaspire]

That's the difference between the real game on the field played by actual players and just adding up some static runs on paper to calculate theoretical wins. Respect within the game is not unimportant to those actually playing, even if it is to the numbers being crunched. It means everything to a player in terms of role within the team, relationship with teammates you spend all your time with, overall clubhouse attitude and leadership, and even respect in terms of individual compensation and marketing value and place within the game's history. It is that individual pride, drive, and attitude that powers individual excellence. Respect in all of those aspects are what players are playing and fighting for everyday on the field.

Your own collective confidence can have a great deal to do with whether or not your are earning any respect on the field or not.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by hiaspire

Any thinking fan who follows a young developing team would never call spring training meaningless.

That's interesting, because I re-read my post, and guess what: NOWHERE did I write that "spring training is meaningless". Don't twist my words.

This team needs to develop a winning attitude and stand up for themselves with confidence. They aren't just a bunch of rookies anymore for veterans to take advantage of. They need to show a little toughness and that they have some fight in them. I don't find this something to get hysterical over and think it might be even positive in the long-run.

OK, so then why do this retaliation macho thing with one of your top pitchers and risk suspension and a missed start? I would have preferred Bautista, as HF suggested, or maybe Danny Graves (since he will be cut).

What a crock. Do you think Roger Clemens only throws at hitters if Phil Garner tells him to?

It's a "crock" to suggest that Roger Clemens represents 90% of all pitchers in such situations. OF COURSE Clemens can decide on his own when to brush someone back. Jeff Francis isn't quite in Clemens' category yet, last I checked. He's so mild mannered, he would never throw a pitch behind someone's back intentionally unless ordered to. THINK, HiAspire. Think.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by hiaspire

That's the difference between the real game on the field played by actual players and just adding up some static runs on paper to calculate theoretical wins. Respect within the game is not unimportant to those actually playing, even if it is to the numbers being crunched.

Not to step in to defend Heltonfan here, but I find this line of reasoning by you to be very condescending and insulting to Heltonfan as well as all the other analytical fans who visit here. You seem to believe that we "statheads" believe players are robots without souls or passion. In other words, you write as if we never really watch the game or even understand the nuances that go into "playing the game right".

Give us a break. Really. Your attitude is totally wrong, and I was offended when I read another one of your idiotic claims that we can't remove our eyes from the numbers crunched on a piece of paper. It gets old, HiAspire.

It really does. My patience is wearing thin.

[Heltonfan]

It is that individual pride, drive, and attitude that powers individual excellence. Respect in all of those aspects are what players are playing and fighting for everyday on the field.

That's great. I happen to think that helping one's team win games is a better way to earn respect than engaging in a pointless ritual of machismo.

[hiaspire]

Quoting Roxpert: ESPECIALLY in a meaningless spring training game...

Originally Posted by Heltonfan

That's great. I happen to think that helping one's team win games is a better way to earn respect than engaging in a pointless ritual of machismo.

It's not pointless to the players on the field earning their respect. And I similarly grow tired of such things being called pointless (it isn't just a one-way street boys), but I understand we have a difference of opinion there. You state yours from your perspective where that stuff is pointless, and I state mine where it is the furthest thing from pointless to the players actually on the field while we criticize from the couches watching. The reality is that it does matter to the players and that matters so much more than anything we do here or in our computers. Very much so and always has. It is part of the game much more than the new accounting, despite treatment being opposite here. People don't have to like it, but it can't be dropped as a variable for looking at the game just because it doesn't compute.