Juicers, Suspected and Otherwise

[BigRapidsJackass]

Hmmm, curious career arc for that Gary Mathews, Jr. I guess some guys are late bloomers.

Gary Jr. Matthews - CBS SportsLine.com

Oh.

[indianadrew]

wow what a day. looks like the rocket really does use steroids. i think that this is vindication for todd helton.

[Roxpert]

drew, not being named in the Mitchell report is no vindication for anybody. Think about it for a minute. Only those players who came in contact with with the few sources who talked to the interviewers in the Mitchell investigation were named, and actually not all of those players were mentioned in the report (if they weren't material).

So, this hardly exonerates Helton, Walker, Bichette or any other current or ex-players who weren't named in the report.

The only current Rockies player named was Matt Herges. Hopefully, that won't impact his 2008 performance.

[HoyaRoxFan]

I'll be curious to hear the official statement of the Rockies organization. They've got to be kicking themselves right now, and they still need more bullpen help. Any voiding of Herges contract a la Neagle? (Speaking of, he really was a busy man in Denver doing things other than playing baseball.)

Of course, my local Nats look to have signed the biggest villain of them all, as portrayed in the report, in Lo Duca. Glad to have you at the moment, Yorvit.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Matt Herges and Glenallen Hill.

Herges doesn't surprise me at all. I can't remember if I speculated about him on this board, but I know I've thrown out his name in conversation as a possible juicer. He fits the Buddy Groom/Jason Grimsley profile: mid-30s reliever, reaching the end of a completely nondescript career, who suddenly gains a few mph on his fastball.

Any voiding of Herges contract a la Neagle?

You assume that clubs would want to void these contracts. I see the opposite happening. In fact, I smell a rat.

Look at the number of guys who have signed new contracts and/or been traded over the last week or so who are named in the Mitchell report:

Tejada
Herges
LoDuca
Gagne

Go back a little bit in time, and you'll see even more new commitments. Pettite, Sheffield.

The point is this: everyone assumed these players would be blackballed. If it was assumed that they'd be mention in the Mitchell report, clubs would be running away from them or dumping them. But in reality clubs scrambled to get deals done before the Mitchell report hit the fan. The Most Ethical Team in Major Sports did what Jesus would have done: they signed the sinner before the sin became public to avoid any backlash. Ask yourself: what would the media and fans have to say if Matt Herges were to sign tomorrow morning? The Rockies simply couldn't have done it and kept telling us that they are "winning the right way." Having signed him last week, they can easily say, "Hey, a deal's a deal, we never saw this coming, and Matt's accused usage was a couple years ago."

Same with Gagne. Same with Tejada. LoDuca. Pettite.

Yeah, clubs have really learned their lesson from the Age of Steroids. No more "turning a blind eye" to the problem.

Yeah.
Right.

[TheIncredibleRox]

You know whats funny.... Tejada on the list, Raffy Palmerio not.

[TheIncredibleRox]

You know who else is on there is Denny Neagle. Other than being a 'cheater' in other ways (his wife), no one would have ever suspected him.

It's something I've been saying for a long time... the 'eye' test really provides very little evidence. Some guys are naturally jacked. And I've known guys who have done 3-4 cycles who look no different physically from any guy at the coffee shop. Case in point, pencil-neck soft-tosser Denny.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Didn't know Viagra was considered a PED. At least not that kind of performance enhancer.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleRox

You know who else is on there is Denny Neagle. Other than being a 'cheater' in other ways (his wife), no one would have ever suspected him.

I did. Maybe that's because I ran into Neagle around January 2002 in Morrison at a benefit event. He was a bartender at the bar where the event was, and served me a beer. He looked thicker than I remember, and I asked him how he was doing. He said, "Look at me. I'm pretty buff right now!", and sort of laughed and winked at me.

Ever since that encounter, I suspected.

BTW, I just finished reading the "juicier" parts of the report (no pun intended), and have the following reactions:

1. No doubt Clemens used. His trainer spilled his guts, and has absolutely nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose. McNamee had been training Clemens as recently as this year, and was being paid by the Rocket as his personal trainer. He was repeatedly warned that it's a felony to make any false statements during the interviews. They were close since their Toronto days. Obviously, he won't have Clemens (or any other players) as clients anymore.

2. Paul Lo Duca was a real key guy in this. He introduced numerous Dodgers to his source, including Herges. Also, Herges and a handful of other Dodger prospects juiced together in Albuquerque, according to a Dukes source, months before getting called up, quoting Herges as saying that he wanted to be "in peak condition" when called up in 1999.

3. Brian Roberts shouldn't have been named in this since he was only referred to in heresay, and no one confirmed selling or administering PEDs to him. Not quite sure why he wasn't removed from the final draft, as reportedly lots of other players were.

Most importantly, these 78 players are the tip of the iceberg. They were the only ones included in the report since Mitchell could not get much cooperation from any players or MLBPA. So, he only had a handful of sources such as McNamee and that Mets clubhouse guy. I think these 78 players are probably a small minority of the total number of users during the same timeframe. My guess is you could multiply that number by 5x or 10x and be close.

One last note - The clubs knew about many of the abuses. It was clear, for example, from Dodgers notes obtained and shown in the report that Kevin Brown was traded to the Yankees shortly after the club concluded he was breaking down and using "medication" for his muscles (i.e. steroids).

The report makes for a fascinating read, at least in the portions that name the players.

[indianadrew]

i downloaded and printed the whole thing. i told my boss it was only about 70 pages... ooops. anyhow i am begining to read it.

"Only those players who came in contact with with the few sources who talked to the interviewers in the Mitchell investigation were named"

there have been alot of rockies using steroids in the time that helton has been there. users tend to gravitate towards one and other and tend to buy from the same guy. if helton was using steroids it most likely would have been when neagle, but he was also on the roster at the same time as lansing, mercker, and gary bennett, probably others. i still think that it does vindicate helton somewhat.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Skimming the Mitchell Report.

Here's my two favorite parts so far.

1. Internal Dodgers memo on Paul LoDuca when they were getting ready to trade him (wasn't that DePodesta's move?):

Steroids aren't being used anymore on him. Big part of this.
Might have some value to trade . . . Florida might have interest.
. . . Got off the steroids . . . Took away a lot of hard line drives.
. . . Can get comparable value back would consider trading. . . . If you do trade him, will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year. That's his makeup. Comes to play. Last year of contract, playing for 05.

I love that "will get back on the stuff and try to show you he can have a good year." I imagine conversations like this were commonplace in MLB front offices around this time. It's just rare to see someone take minutes of the meetings.

2. Giants trainer Stan Conte (no relation to BALCO's Victor) tried to get GM Brian Sabean to ban Greg Anderson from the Giants clubhouse. He was concerned that Sabean not let anyone know that he was the guy trying to kick out Anderson since Barry would put up a fuss:

Conte recalls that during this series [August 2002] a Giants player asked Conte about steroids. Conte refused to identify the player to us, citing athletic trainer privilege.

"Athletic trainer privilege." That's a good one. We'll have to change the law school casebooks to include that along side physician-patient and priest-penitent.

Honorable mentions:

1. Unexpected guys on the list of 'roid/HGH users: FP Santangelo, Rondell White, David Justice, Larry Bigbie (he deserves a refund from his supplier), Mike Lansing (we probably got him after he stopped using), Nook Logan, Hal Morris, Kevin Brown, Darren Holmes (not really unexpected, I just forgot he ever existed), Kent Mercker (I'm guessing it was in his short Rockies tenure since that's when he was coming back from injury)

2. Totally expected guys: Jack Cust, Eric Gagne, Brendan Donnelly (beware the 30ish reliever who has an unexpected performance spike!), a whole bunch of Giants/A's/Yankees.

Deadspin.com is posting excerpts ... just the interesting stuff. A lot easier than going through the whole thing.

I think this is great. I can't wait for the preposterous denials starting tomorrow. "I was told it was a vitamin shot." "I had a prescription from a dentist." "I never knowingly used PEDs even though my ass resembled a pin cushion."

And don't listen to all the apologists telling you that HGH doesn't "enhance performance." Being able to come back from serious injury faster, or being able to recover faster between starts when you're a 42 year old 300 game winner is enhanced performance. I would like to say that HGH should be allowed for players recovering from injury, but I think we can already see the likely outcome of that concept: every single player has to "recover" from something, including just normal wear and tear on key body parts, so everyone would have the prescription. Sad to say but there's really no answer other than better/more frequent testing.

I almost fell over when I heard Steve Phillips say something sensible today. He says even though there's no good HGH urine test now, he thinks urine samples should be stored from all players -- just the threat of being found out down the line if/when a good test is created will be a significant disincentive.

[TheIncredibleRox]

Yeah, but who wants their first baseball job to be at the piss library?

[Roxpert]

Poor Larry Bigbie. He's the only active player who snitched. Last season, he toiled in the minors. IF he ever rebounded enough to land an MLB job, he will probably wish he hadn't. Bigbie will be a pariah in any MLB clubhouse forever since he is the one and only "infamous rat"! It shouldn't be that way, but that's the way the world works. Brian Roberts won't be putting Bigbie on his X-Mas card list this year, after being thrown under the bus.

[BigRapidsJackass]

I didn't see that part about Larry the Snitch. Did he rat out Brian Roberts?

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by indianadrew

there have been alot of rockies using steroids in the time that helton has been there. users tend to gravitate towards one and other and tend to buy from the same guy. if helton was using steroids it most likely would have been when neagle, but he was also on the roster at the same time as lansing, mercker, and gary bennett, probably others. i still think that it does vindicate helton somewhat.

You're using twisted logic and wishful thinking, drew. I hope you're right, but realistically you can't expect ANY player to be any more "in the clear" than they were this time yesterday. Deadspin has a small editorial on this issue today that says it perfectly.....

Mitchell Report: So, What Does It All MEAN?