Juicers, Suspected and Otherwise

[indianadrew]

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleRox

You know whats funny.... Tejada on the list, Raffy Palmerio not.

raffy is on page 103

[Newman]

In conclusion...

Nothing happened.

There will be no testing for HGH.

Was Helton guilty? Who knows? He didn't hang out with the NY clubhouse guy or the Balco guys. Does that mean he wasn't juicing when he hit his 49 homers? No.

Krieger had a good column yesterday in the RMN, condemning Bud Selig.

Senator Mitchell didn't have subpoena power. He got his info from the two NY clubhouse sources. 22 Yankees were named. What if he had talked to the Rockies clubhouse boy? Would more people be named than just Herges and that guy who was afraid of spiders, the first base coach? Laughed when I heard Irv Brown say that Hill needed to strengthen his arm when waving a runner to 2B. That's why he took the steroids.

What can you do but laugh at all this. And then cry.

What will change? Nothing. What's to stop a player from taking HGH or the next designer drug that there's no urine test for? And why do we think the NFL is so clean? Do they test for HGH? Blood test? I don't think so.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Newman, I'm taking the high road on this one. I think the Mitchell Report is important. I think it is useful. But I do agree that it is useful mostly as a historical record. The solution phase is in MLB's (and the Union's) hands. And I don't think much more than what we've got now is likely to happen. I do think we're in a down phase in steroid/HGH use. Players are scared, not just of being found out and suspended, but of being caught up in some kind of DEA sting.

But that will change. New drugs will come about, the fear will subside, and PED use will be on the upswing again.

I do have to throw in one comment. I keep hearing about "flimsy evidence" against the named players. And from what I've read, in a few cases (the Larry Bigbie outing of Brian Roberts) the evidence is a bit thin.

But in other cases, it is actually superb. This McNamee guy provided a highly detailed description of Roger Clemens' involvement with PEDs. Guys have been indicted on drug charges -- and convicted -- on weaker evidence. It was not testimony under oath, but as Mitchell (a damn good lawyer and judge; not just a politician) said, the key interviews with McNamee were jointly conducted with FBI present. Lying to a federal investigator can easily get you indicted (can't it, Martha and Scooter?) McNamee had a lot more to lose from lying than from telling the truth. Maybe he'll write a book, but honestly, I can't see much of a payday in that. This story is pretty well played out. And note that Pettite just admitted to the absolute minimum contact with PEDs that is consistent with McNamee's story as recounted in the Mitchell Report. So please: no more of this "shaky evidence that would never hold up in a court of law." I know more than a little about these things, and it's not true; it's just spin.

[Newman]

How do you read David Justice's refutation?

Watched the sports reporters this morning. They thought Bud would come out and suspend the 20 active players who made Mitchell's list. That shocked me, but maybe it's a good idea. Send fear into the MLB community. Maybe players would be reluctant to order from hgh, human, growth, control, human growth control, 100% natural, enhancement, tonify, relaxing, beauty, pills, spray, health, improvement, advantages, youth" HGH.com HUMANGROWTHHORMONE.com HGH-R for Antiaging Weightloss & Bodybuilding - Ultimate HGH- and shoot up.

They discussed the HOF vote for Clemens. I'd have to see a time line. Why does he get a pass? Everyone says Bonds should get in regardless, because he had the numbers before he started doing HGH. Can the same be said for 7 time Cy Young Clemens? When do we think he started doing the PEDs? After his 3rd Cy Young?

Pettitte said he took the HGH to recover from an injury. If so why didn't he get it legally, from a doctor, instead of illegally thru the dirty trainer?

Who can believe any of these guys? I saw ARod this morning, from a 60 Minutes clip, saying he had been tested 8 times last year. But tested for what? For certain steroids? For masking agents? Certainly not for HGH. Why do we assume ARod doesn't take HGH?

It's hard not to forget Raffy Palmiero shaking his index finger at Congress, in best Bill Clinton style, saying he never took steroids. Liar. How can you trust any of them. Big numbers and big contracts are at stake.

PS INteresting that the computer put that stuff in green, above, just because I typed the initials HGH? I wonder where it goes when you click on it. Or was it because I typed in the website hgh, human, growth, control, human growth control, 100% natural, enhancement, tonify, relaxing, beauty, pills, spray, health, improvement, advantages, youth" HGH.com HUMANGROWTHHORMONE.com HGH-R for Antiaging Weightloss & Bodybuilding - Ultimate HGH- which may or may not exist?

[TheIncredibleRox]

Yeah I love these 'admissions' we're getting... "Once when poor little me was injured, this guy told me there was this wonderful drug that could help me. It wasn't illegal at the time. Yeah, I ordered the stuff. But when it came, I didn't take it... I just stared at it for five minutes, then threw it all away, 'cuz it wasn't something I wanted to do. I was just trying to recover from an injury, not to enhance my performance. And I didn't actually take it. So yeah, I admit it."

Funny you refereanced Bill Clinton there Newman.... I couldn't help but think of "I did not inhale" while reading some of this stuff.

[Newman]

If Pettitte got the HGH, to heal, why didn't he get it from a doctor, legally? That confuses me. Is HGH legal if medically prescribed? Why didn't he simply get it from Paul Byrd's dentist then?

[Newman]

Roger Clemens on 60 Minutes tonite.

6pm Ch 4 here in Denver. I plan on taping it as I will be out watching "There Will Be Blood" with Daniel Day Lewis at the Mayan.

Roger is going to tell us he took flax seed oil or vitamin B12 shots? Andy Pettitte fessed up. Why can't Roger? What is it with people? They think they can just lie to us, the fans, and get away with it, that we'll buy it?

Does Roger think most people are stupid? Is that it? He can just wag his finger at us and say he didn't sleep with that woman or take steroids and just because he's Roger Clemens or Bill Clinton or Raffy Palmiero that we'll buy what he's selling?

How many times does Lucy have to take the ball away just as Charlie Brown is about to kick it, before Chuck wakes up?

Q: Do I have this right? Roger will go under oath, before Congress? Isn't lying to Congress (I know, talk about a bunch of liars themselves) isn't that still considered a crime, punishable by jail? Isn't that why Big Mac refused to talk about the past and that Sammy Sosa forgot how to speak English? But nothing happened to Palmiero, right? Except he won't get into the HOF.

Maybe Roger feels like he's the Barry Bonds of pitching. He'll get voted in, regardless ofhis drug use. Performance enhancing drug use. When did he start using? How many Cy Youngs had he won before he started using? People say Bonds had the numbers to get into the Hall BEFORE he started using.

[Newman]

Just saw a clip on Drew Soicher, Ch 9 Sports, of all places, that makes it seem, thru a taped phone conversation, that Roger could actually be innocent?

Did anyone else see it or hear of this phone tape?

[Newman]

PeoplePC - News

But of course the story is unclear. Obscure. Bizarre. Are we ever going to get down to the truth of this?

I still think he's guilty.

[BigRapidsJackass]

I just saw that clip of the Clemens-McNamee taped phone call.

First, obviously Roger's people taped it. Otherwise he wouldn't have the tape to release.

Second, if Roger taped it, why was he behaving so bizarrely on it? Why was he telling McNamee "Just tell the truth." Wouldn't the innocent person be berating McNamee to stop lying about him?

But I don't want to take this too far. The tape means nothing. It doesn't make me either more likely or less likely to believe Roger.

The weight of the evidence so far is against Roger. George Mitchell and staff properly weighed the evidence. McNamee obviously supplied steroids and HGH, he injected Pettite with steroids, he injected Clemens with something, you put two and two together.

Pathetic old suckup Mike Wallace just ruined a 60-year career of being known as the man you'd least like to interview you by, through senility or hero worship, let Clemens off the hook. (Krieger in today's Rocky actually had the best take on it I've read so far.) Not even a "is it possible McNamee injected you with something other than B-12/lidocaine? Do you know for certain?

Because this is clearly Clemens' wiggle strategy. If he testifies to Congress under oath, the "I thought it was B-12" thing is his perjury protector.

Again, read the Mitchell report. The evidence is damning. McNamee is a self-serving idiot too (with this "I'll sue you for defamation" crap ... yeah, Roger is destroying the pristine reputation of a drug dealer. Big damages there. I think he just wants to write a book nobody will read.)

The real scandal here is the one nobody is focusing on: at the peak of the Steroid Era, a number of MLB clubs either had drug dealers on their payroll under the cover of "personal trainers" or some such thing. Some that didn't openly permitted drug dealers to hang around the clubhouse as if they were official employees (Greg Anderson). It's time to take some action against those clubs, isn't it Bud? Or does that hit too close to home?

[Newman]

OK, Roger is going to go before Congress, under oath, and swear he never took steroids?

Why? Because they can't prove that he did? His word vs. McNamee's?

Isn't McNamee doing a countersuit now?

Did anything happen to Palmiero, the finger wagger? He went before Congress and lied. I don't think he's in jail now, is he? Maybe it's no big deal to lie in front of Congress. They're used to it. They listen to people like Rumsfeld and Tenet and Cheney all the time.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Newman, it's a big enough deal to lie under oath.

That's why we get preposterous stories. Palmeiro? Well, he created the Clemens Defense. "Somebody gave me a shot of something in my butt ... I thought it was B-12 ... who knew it was steroids?"

Unless there's some kind of paper trail (as in the guys who did the mail-order HGH thing), there's almost never any evidence to prove that they knowingly took steroids, hence no evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are lying when they tell Congress, "I have never used steroids."

The guy who comes out and says, "I've never received a shot of anything in my butt" or "absolutely everything I've ever received was from my physician, and he kept records on all of it?" That guy may just be telling the truth. We haven't seen him yet; he probably doesn't exist.

[dugoutdan]

Newman, Please don't evoke the names of Rumfield and Cheney, and leave out the biggest "To Congress Liar", President William Clinton

[Newman]

Jackass, you'd think they could subpoena Roger Clemens mailman and UPS driver. I know that if I were Roger's mailman I would be aware of shipments from Hgh.com

Of course what if the drug company disguised it's shipments or labeled the return address as Vitamin B12 Nutritional Supplements?

I heard one caller to talk radio, Dave Logan's show I think, say that you don't get shots of lidocaine (a numbing agent) in your butt, if the pain is in your shoulder.

Well, it's a sideshow now. I don't think Roger is a good enuf actor to pull this charade off. He has a huge ego. We know that. That's why he's fighting this, unlike Andy Pettitte, who simply admitted to doing hgh a couple of times. He was so much smarter than Roger. Roger should have just said that and his election to the HOF would have been as smooth as silk.

But noooooooooooooooooooooo. He wants to spin his story, try to convince us that he's completely innocent, and that the only needles that he's seen is for lidocaine and B12.

How many votes did Big Mac get this time around? 12%? 20%? A far cry from the number needed.

Congrats to Goose. The 9th time was the charm. He deserves the HOF.

I guess we'll see if macho Roger gives a rats ass if he gets into the HOF. I wonder if his good friend Tracy Ringolsby will vote for him. I'm sure he will.

Who will get in first? Bonds or Clemens?

[Newman]

Roger is guilty.

Even his wife took HGH for the swim suit edition, and other reasons of vanity. Sly Stallone takes it. Suzanne Sommers.

Was Roger at Canseco's party or not? Where's the nanny to confirm or deny? Apparently Roger got to the nanny first.

Andy Pettitte may have "misremembered" what his friend Roger said about taking hgh?

Local Rockies Herges and firstbase coach Glenallen Hill (Spiderman) admitted to taking steroids or hgh and said they were sorry. Not a good example for the kids. I wonder if proud Roger is banging his head today, wishing he had gone the same route? Probably not. Does anyone seriously believe he's not guilty?

Admit it. Say you're sorry. Everyone was doing it (may still be doing hgh). And move on. America forgives and forgets. But stay proud, wag your finger, lie to America like Roger, Raffy, Bill Clinton, and take your lumps. No one likes being lied to, or taken for a fool.