We are a farm team for the HAVES

[Newman]

How can we astute fans see it any other way?

The signal was loud and clear when Jennings was dealt.

I know others on this great site, superstar writers with giant intellect and prolific writing ability (that would be you, Roxpert), think the Jennings trade was a good deal, on paper.

We will never be playing for THIS YEAR with Monfort as owner.

You can be the smartest person on this site, be the very best at crunching all the numbers, do the most reading , but still, how can you come to any other conclusion? We are a farm team for the HAVES in MLB. We are part of the have nots. This won't change until we get a new owner. He fell off the horse and won't get back up. Maybe he banged his head. Maybe he had no balls to begin with.

I also skimmed some other argument about the A's being a farm team. Again, the prolific writer disagreed. Is that a knee jerk disagreement? Don't the A's get rid of star players from Giambi to Tejada to all those star pitchers once they start earning real money?

When was the last time the A's were in a World Series?

Sure sometimes they make the playoffs and they certainly seem more competitive than the Rox. I'll give you that. But the criticism still stands. As soon as the talent starts making real money he is gone. That is true of the A's as well as the Rox. Isn't that the definition of supplying the HAVE$ with talent, being a farm team? Isn't that the definition of a dysfunctional system?

Add Brian Fuentes to the list. Isn't this his last year here? How does Monfort expect to keep fans, fight off dreaded apathy, if he keeps moving star players AND never makes it to the playoffs?

[Roxpert]

Everything you wrote is correct, Newman, except not liking the Jennings trade. I think that's tantamount to "tossing the baby out with the bathwater". We have bad owners and no real commitment toward competing, but this one trade is something you'll like in the coming years when you see Hirsch pitch and witness how Jennings pitches and what he will cost.

[Newman]

That doesn't change the big picture.

We are a farm team for the HAVES.

I expect Jason Hirsh will pitch well. When? Down the road. In a few years. If they keep the Humidor on. And so forth.

Are you telling me that he will pitch as good as Jennings will THIS YEAR? That's my gripe. When do we get to play for THIS YEAR?

As soon as Hirsh starts making real money, won't he be moved as well?

Roxpert, in your fantasy team THIS YEAR, when it comes down to the later rounds, and the decision is between Jennings and Hirsh, which one will you pick?

[hiaspire]

From the mouth of a giant intellect, "Quit with the Oakland analogy already." At least if you are on the other side of the arguement anyway. You're probably okay if you are using it to criticize the Rox instead.

You certainly represent the general fan opinion about not wanting to wait around any more on the stinking Rockies, Newman. I feel that myself often as a complainer about this organization, and can agree with many of the points made related to not having more urgency in fixing the problems.

But if Jason Hirsh has a stronger career than Jennings (as a great many GMs in baseball wouldn't have traded Hirsh for Jennings straight up and some have said so) and they end up getting 3 very solid contributors for one in the end, I think you'll completely change your tune. Or at least find something else to be upset about. There are better examples of failure here than this. In baseball terms only, at least they acquired more talent arguably than they gave up. We don't do that very often. Not a lot of waiting involved in this either, though, as all three guys will probably be on the MLB roster and contributors for this year and the next several quite possibly.

The measuring stick you use of having to WIN a World Series isn't one I agree with, though. Things sometimes have to come together just right at the right time sometimes to win a 7 game series. That isn't the only measurement of a successful franchise. I'll take years and years of Cleveland success in the 90s, or the A's run of playoff challenges, or the Braves decade+ of division titles that included so many playoff disappointments. And you would too Newman, compared to the travesty of mediocrity we have otherwise now. That isn't failure by any means or something to criticize from our perspective.

But if you require that a winning championship team be used then look no further than the Marlins who self-destruct every few years and hold massive fire sales that would drive you crazy seeing proven talent being sold away for elite prospects. That worked multiple times, and resulted in championships for a team without much collective money cummulatively over the years on the whole.

When was the last time the Yankees won the World Series recently despite having the biggest payroll every year and all-stars at every position??

Real TEAMS are the ones making it work these days, like the Tigers coming up from rebuilding phases with elite young talent. The ChiSox making moves that statheads hated but worked on the field on their way to victory rallying around their old school traditionalist manager. The Marlins rising from the ashes of firesale destruction and playing team baseball to shock the world.

We aren't ever going to be the big spenders again you want us to be. Those chanting for more money had their hay day during the Hampton/Neagle nightmare. That's when money was flowing for you. I would like it too, but it's just not part of the actual situation to assess. It isn't going to be part of the plan any time soon, but that doesn't mean all baseball ends either. There still are some interesting things to look at on the field in terms of actual baseball talent.

I would LOVE for the Rox to become the next version of the Twins or A's and follow in their footsteps. That's much more realistic than the opposing view of new owners magically appearing with big wallets. And if we had a run of making the playoffs for several seasons doing that, you'd be right there cheering! Those are monumental SUCCESS story that are still going on for huge under-dogs that managed to actually win the "right way" and through intelligent strategy instead of just relying on the easy charge-card way out. Any fool can write a big check, but it takes a strong organization to do what so many of these other success stories have done throughout the years to find the same high levels of success without the EXCUSES that we make here and overcoming the same obstacles that many of our fans find impossible.

It's not. It's very doable, and we even have more than our share of young talent to make it happen. Arguably MORE young talent in some ways than some of those other teams have had who did make it happen.

[Heltonfan]

Isn't that the definition of supplying the HAVE$ with talent, being a farm team?

No, it isn't. A farm team supplies other teams with talent without getting anything in return. That's not what we're doing.

When do we get to play for THIS YEAR?

When we actually have a real shot at the playoffs. If we tried to play for THIS YEAR this year, we'd be in no better shape next year than we are right now. Playing for THIS YEAR would be a great way to ensure that we never break the 83-win mark.

It's fine to be upset about the circumstances that caused the Jennings trade to make sense for us. But to criticize the trade itself is absurd (unless it's because you think Hirsh/Taveras/Buchholz are worse than we think they are, or that Jennings is better than we think he is).

[Newman]

I'm not saying that we didn't get talent back.

Aspire, will we ever be playing for THIS YEAR?

Is anyone excited about Wily Taveras in CF? You can't steal first base. If he's so good, why did Houston get rid of him?

Aspire, who wouldn't want us to be the next A's or Twins? God, anything but the same old non-competitive Rockies. Are you saying that this deal will put us into the playoffs? I say it won't. What say you?

And keep your answer short. You know I have no attention span and I have to get over to the political sites, where it matters these days.

The Tigers had a great year. They were strong up the middle. Had an all star catcher. Guillen and Polanco are much better than Tulo and Matsui. Granderson is better than Taveras. Plus the Tigers had a great manager in Jim Leyland. How come we never can get a great manager here <groan>.

Stick to the thread. Are we playing for THIS YEAR? Will Holliday be on our team in 3 years? Fuentes? Atkins? Francis?

It would be different if we made the playoffs, and still acted like a farm team. Maybe I would smile once in awhile then.

Aspire, do you think we'll make the playoffs this year? I don't. Vegas predicts us for last or next to last. What say you?

[Newman]

Ok, Heltonfan. I hear what you're saying.

When do you think we'll be able to compete? In two years? Three?

Why should a fan watch this year then? Out of habit?

Many fans don't care about winning, competing. That's obvious. Monfort was still able to cram 30,000 chumps into Coors Field every night. I haven't been there in years. I'm sick of the losing. I'm sick of the "wait til next year" philosophy.

But I do hear what you're saying, HF. We are stuck with that philosophy.

[hiaspire]

Aspire, will we ever be playing for THIS YEAR?

History has indicated that if the Rox think they can make the playoffs during a season that they will make a move. DOD indicated as much last off-season as well. Come the trade deadline, if we are a serious legitimate contender I have no doubt they'll make a move and play for now.

If you are a last place team, though, you don't make a championship move before you KNOW you can reach a higher level. The D-Rays aren't looking for that last piece of the puzzle to put them over the top. You have to get CLOSE first. We don't know just yet how good these youngsters will be next year. Tulo or Hirsh might be ROY with Francis pushing for Cy Young contention. If things go really well with the TALENT they have, I have no doubt they will help those guys. They have done it before when in such a position.

Is anyone excited about Wily Taveras in CF? You can't steal first base. If he's so good, why did Houston get rid of him?

I have wanted Taveras here since he was lighting up AA. I'm excited about it. Lots of good players get traded. Pitching is EXTREMELY expensive and you have to give up talent to get talent. Hirsh, though, was the biggest talent exchanged. Taveras was just a nice supplement to it at an area of extreme need.

Aspire, who wouldn't want us to be the next A's or Twins? God, anything but the same old non-competitive Rockies. Are you saying that this deal will put us into the playoffs? I say it won't. What say you?

All those people who criticize the A's I would guess. You didn't sound too enthusiastic about such a path before. We would ALL love it if the same thing happened here that has been going on in Oakland/MN for years (even the veteran trades for young talent they have to do) because that's how you make things work under those conditions.

You can't always go from absolute worst to absolute best. There is a process and journey from one point to the other. I join you in your impatience as I often complain about the years and years DOD wasted with mediocre stop gapping when other young players in the league were given opportunities and took advantage of it.

Do you think we make the playoffs this year WITH Jennings? I don't. I think this gives us a better shot at it in the near future, though.

Aspire, do you think we'll make the playoffs this year? I don't. Vegas predicts us for last or next to last. What say you?

We have a shot if some of those youngsters prove to be GREAT as I mentioned. But we weren't going to make the playoffs this year with or without Jennings. We just aren't at that point yet.

Just like the Tigers weren't going to make the playoffs in 2005. Just like the Marlins weren't going to make the playoffs last year after their firesale (though don't count them out this year). That's just a matter of timing. Things have to be in the works and improving before things suddenly start working in a big way.

You have to look at the whole picture. Before the A's and Twins and Indians and Braves became GREAT franchises with long playoff runs, they had some seasons where they DIDN'T make the playoffs and WEREN'T GOING TO realistically no matter what tweaks they did. They were involved in a bigger PROCESS that was going to pay off soon enough. They still had things going on that were worth paying attention to that were about to become great. We have a shot here for such a story to play out with some young talent that is already making big MLB impacts. We'll see if our guys can make it happen as other organizations certainly have in similar situations.

Baseball is much more of a marathon than a sprint. Both within a season and in terms of building a winner. The first few games of a season don't matter all that much in the end or determine your playoff hopes, but they are still worth watching. The Rox aren't worth watching to as many people who feel your frustration. It is up to them to turn it around and win people back, but I'll be watching and evaluating if we can do what so many others have down this same path.

[Newman]

And so many more have FAILED on this path. Kansas City is a failure. Pittsburgh is a failure. Colorado is a failure.

There are many more failures than success stories.

Will Ianetta make it? When? In 3 years?

Will Tulo make it? When? In two years?

When will Atkins be dealt? When will Cook be gone? Holliday? Fuentes??

You see, when the young guys are finally ready to contribute, then the established talent is making too much money, needs to be dealt, for young players, who won't be ready for a few more years. It's a vicious cylce.

[Below C-Level]

Newman, there were two men in a boat: Pete and Repeat. Pete fell out. Who was left?

Your act is tired. Give it a rest.

[hiaspire]

Originally Posted by Newman

It's a vicious cylce.

It's the same cycle for all the teams in that similar position. The same obstacles to overcome. They are all in the simliar boat, but the thing that differentiates the MANY success stories from the MANY failures is the intelligence of the front office and the strength of their strategic plan and their decision-making ability.

When will MVP Giambi leave for the Big Apple? When will Tejada bolt? When will the big 3 aces all be gone? All these teams have to face such issues, but some are much more skillful than others at managing the situation and keeping things afloat.

Tulo has a nice shot at ROY this season I believe. That's not 3 years from now. Not that it will absolutely happen, but I'd put a bet on him.

I have been both a big fan and a huge critic of DOD since he's been here. Much more of a critic now, but at the same time the destruction he has brought here has also created a ton of talent in the wings. We have a head start on many of those past success stories, arguably, because we already have a higher level of raw talent in the pipeline and already a couple guys who have proven themselves on the MLB level already.

That doesn't mean we WILL succeed where others have. We just have a good chance of that -- IF our front office can make some wise choices along the way in maximizing our talent and opportunities. That's a big if, but to their credit we are in a good spot right now.

You aren't going to change your mind I know, but at least keep some of those more optimistic possibilities in your mind because it isn't impossible to do what they want to accomplish here. Others have. And others have also failed as you point out. But we've got some talent on the field to make a decent run at it perhaps. And if they do improve and get close, you'll see a shift where management brings in more help for now. They aren't going to do it, though, if the youngsters aren't quite ready just yet because that wouldn't get them very far either. They'll make that move when it looks like it will make a real difference I believe. We aren't quite there yet, but could be and even as soon as this year potentially if everything goes right.

In the meantime, you have every right to want something better and sooner results. I have for years also. But I'm a little happier with better talent on the field and at least some possibility where there was none before.

[Heltonfan]

Originally Posted by Newman

When do you think we'll be able to compete? In two years? Three?

Why should a fan watch this year then? Out of habit?

If we don't do anything too stupid, and our young players develop to the extent that most people expect them to, we could contend as soon as '08 ("contend" meaning finishing within, say, 5 games of a playoff spot). I can't say that I expect that to happen, but it's a perfectly plausible scenario.

Why should we watch this year? Because what happens this year is indicative of what might happen in the future.

[Roxpert]

Remember last year's poll, Heltonfan, when we were asked when the team may contend, defined as entering September within 5 games of a playoff spot? I think the consensus was 2010 or beyond, IIRC.

Now, while it may be PLAUSIBLE that we could be within 5 games of a playoff spot by the end of the 2008 season, I would still stick to my guns on last year's vote. I truly feel that the Rockies won't contend until perhaps 2010, if we are lucky. I have history on my side: We haven't been within 5 games of a playoff spot entering September since 1997.

[rockieprogress]

"From the mouth of a giant intellect, "Quit with the Oakland analogy already." "

HiAspire, that's not a fair comment. It's one thing to comment about a certain theme within the content of the thread, but its another thing altogether to bring that content over to another thread.

I believe that there are different ways to compete in MLB. There will always be the Yankee way (until some kind of salary-cap is accepted by the owners and the MLBPA) and there is the way that the A's and Twins are currently using.
But to clarify one point, I find it very interesting that the A's farm system is only ranked 22nd this year. Will they restock, so they can be ready to deal in 2 years? I think so, but it will be interesting to watch either way.

The Royals, while being a failure at present, were a very well run franchise in the 80's. The difference between then and now is they forgot that it takes a "baseball" guy to run the franchise, and had their owner meddling into the "business" of baseball. It really doesn't matter what the GM does when that is the case.

And therein lies my contention that the A's way of running their franchise CAN work here. It takes a while for the owners of a franchise to butt-out of the decisions being made. That can only happen after the GM has earned there respect.
IMO, Do'D has earned their respect by building the farm system, and now the franchise CAN move forward. I don't think the Monfort's have completely "butted-out" as evidenced by them drafting Reynolds over Longoria, but progress takes a while...

I agree with what HF gives as a timetable for contending, but I think it will happen ONLY if Roxpert is right about his contention that the franchise needs to spend about $20M-$30M more to get "the straws that stir the drink".

If they're not going to spend that money, they should trade Atkins NOW (this year) and bring up Stewart, and trade Holliday (again this year) and play Baker in LF. That would give them the flexibility to add some good (not great, but better) players.