HOF thread

Heltonfan · December 28th, 2006, 10:59 AM

First, some interesting news... Rich Lederer at Baseball Analysts has evidently managed to convince Tracy Ringolsby to vote for Bert Blyleven:

Quote:

Between the information you provided and the constant conversations I have had with Blyleven's contemporaries, I became convinced that I had slighted him in the past. He is the first guy I can remember that I have ever failed to vote for on the first time and then added later.

Leaving aside the merits of the decision itself (although I think Blyleven is more than qualified for the Hall), this is exactly the way I want to see HOF voters making their choices. Actual investigation, open-mindedness, and serious thought, not just the gut feelings and stubbornness that seem to characterize a lot of ballots. Bravo, Tracy.

My votes, by the way: Ripken, Gwynn, Blyleven, Trammell, Gossage, Saberhagen, Murphy, Belle. The first five, I think, are no-brainers.

Saberhagen in the Hall feels weird to me, but statistically, he passes the bar. The bar, by the way, is lower than a lot of people seem to think; if we assume that about 30% of HOFers should be pitchers (which, if memory serves, is pretty close to the actual number), then there ought to be 60-65 pitchers in the Hall. I have Sabes ranked at #42, excluding the not-yet-eligibles (Clemens, Maddux, RJ, etc). Blyleven comes in at #18; in other words, he would rank comfortably among the top half of HOFers. Should be an easy call.

I can see an argument against Murphy or Belle; it's the classic peak vs. career debate. I try to give them equal weight, but I don't pretend that my chosen spot on that continuum is more legitimate than any other.

I'm leaving off McGwire for now, due to steroid concerns (he's got lower-tier HOF numbers, making him the perfect example of a guy who belongs in the HOF if clean, and probably doesn't if not) - there's enough doubt there that I see no reason to jump the gun and vote him in ASAP.

Rice and Mattingly are as borderline as it gets. I wouldn't argue too much if you wanted to put them in as well.

Roxpert · December 28th, 2006, 11:13 AM

Heltonfan, just to clarify, you don't actually have a vote for the HOF, do you? Your post may give the impression that you are in the Baseball Writers Association of America, and received and filled out a HOF ballot.

Not to say they shouldn't have people like you voting, of course!

Heltonfan · December 28th, 2006, 11:19 AM

Heh... good point. I guess I should have phrased that a little differently...

indianadrew · December 28th, 2006, 02:59 PM

pete rose should be in. there is a good argument on eithor side. my personal feeling is that he should be in. i know it was proven that he bet on the reds, but nobody else has come out and said they helped pete shave points or anything like that. what if he was only betting on the reds to win? does that make any diffrence? what would happen if it came out that somebody already in the HOF used steroids? LET PETE IN!!

Roxpert · December 28th, 2006, 04:18 PM

Drew,

Even if Pete Rose only bet on the Reds to win, it could ruin the integrity of the games he managed that he DIDN'T have money on. In other words, who's to say that Rose didn't hold Rob Dibble out of a winnable game that he didn't bet on, in order to save him for another game that he does bet on?

In other words, the possible fact that Rose only bet on the Reds to win is just as bad, if not worse, than it would be if he bet on them to both win and lose. He could stack a lineup and use his best bullpen options when he has money on the line, and rest players and use scrubs when he has no economic interest in the outcome. Get it?

He could EVEN let someone like Dibble in for 2 or 3 innings of a tight game because he's desperate to win a game he put a lot of money on, risking his player's HEALTH.

Keep Rose out. Read the rules for induction, and you'll agree

indianadrew · December 28th, 2006, 07:15 PM

there is justification eithor way you look at it.

how much snow do you guys have? it was about 50 and sunny here today. i kinda wish we had a bit of snow here to drive on. woooohoooo..nothing quite like delivering pizza in the snow.

rockieprogress · December 28th, 2006, 07:22 PM

I disagree with you Roxpert.
I think it would be an excellent opportunity to recognize Rose's on-field accomplishments (he has the most hits for crying out loud) while providing baseball a forum to officially condemn his post-playing deeds as unacceptable to the game of baseball as a whole.
There should be open discussion as to what he did. Not condoning nor condemning, but OPEN discussion, so that baseball can gather information into what patterns develop when someone like a Manager isn't doing everything he can to win the most games.

You can't separate Rose from Baseball (as much as some would like). He's part of the very fabric of the game, and as such should be acknowledged.

On another note, HF which Belle are you refering to? Albert (Joey)? I'm drawing a blank on that reference.

rockieprogress · December 28th, 2006, 07:24 PM

drew, we still have about 1ft in my frontyard (of natural snow, about 3ft of shoveled from my driveway) and so far it has snowed about 2in today.

Heltonfan · December 29th, 2006, 12:32 AM

RP: Yep, I'm talking about Albert Belle. I thought that might be a controversial choice.

Belle is a modern-day Ralph Kiner. Same career length, same great peak, same below-average defense. The two are virtually indistinguishable. And they're both HOFers. Belle has no shot to actually get elected, but if he gets judged on his merits as a ballplayer rather than on his treatment of reporters (and Fernando Vina), he belongs.

wolf213 · December 29th, 2006, 01:03 PM

What?? No Dante Bichette?

rockieprogress · December 29th, 2006, 03:17 PM

HF, I have to disagree with you.

Albert has no business being included in the HOF.
I can understand the Dale Murphy reference, he was a catalyst on the Braves when the Braves weren't any good,

But Albert?
He threw a ball at a person in the stands. That's not some "the writers don't like him because he dis'd them" issue, that's a "he should've been banished from the game for at least a year" type of issue.

Heltonfan · December 29th, 2006, 03:45 PM

I can't really argue with that. I'm just more interested in recognizing the game's best players than in making moral judgments. And Albert Belle was one hell of a baseball player.

BigRapidsJackass · December 29th, 2006, 09:49 PM

Any other Davey Concepcion fans out there?

I'll stack him up against Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese anyday.

Heltonfan · December 30th, 2006, 12:26 AM

I wouldn't. Rizzuto was a better hitter, and a great defensive SS in his own right, and lost three prime years to the war. And the offensive gap between Reese and Concepcion is huge.

And besides, both Reese and Rizzuto are lower-tier HOFers, guys who might not really belong. If we want to go down that road, then Jay Bell has a decent HOF case as well.

indianadrew · December 30th, 2006, 08:29 AM

"I'm just more interested in recognizing the game's best players than in making moral judgments."

with that said HF, doo you think pete rose should be in?

December 28th, 2006, 04:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Drew, Even if Pete Rose only bet on the Reds to win, it could ruin the integrity of the games he managed that he DIDN'T have money on. In other words, who's to say that Rose didn't hold Rob Dibble out of a winnable game that he didn't bet on, in order to save him for another game that he does bet on? In other words, the possible fact that Rose only bet on the Reds to win is just as bad, if not worse, than it would be if he bet on them to both win and lose. He could stack a lineup and use his best bullpen options when he has money on the line, and rest players and use scrubs when he has no economic interest in the outcome. Get it? He could EVEN let someone like Dibble in for 2 or 3 innings of a tight game because he's desperate to win a game he put a lot of money on, risking his player's HEALTH. Keep Rose out. Read the rules for induction, and you'll agree Last edited by Roxpert; December 28th, 2006 at 04:20 PM.

December 28th, 2006, 07:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	there is justification eithor way you look at it. how much snow do you guys have? it was about 50 and sunny here today. i kinda wish we had a bit of snow here to drive on. woooohoooo..nothing quite like delivering pizza in the snow. Last edited by indianadrew; December 30th, 2006 at 10:22 AM.

December 28th, 2006, 11:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Heltonfan, just to clarify, you don't actually have a vote for the HOF, do you? Your post may give the impression that you are in the Baseball Writers Association of America, and received and filled out a HOF ballot. Not to say they shouldn't have people like you voting, of course!

December 28th, 2006, 11:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 902	Heh... good point. I guess I should have phrased that a little differently...

December 28th, 2006, 02:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	pete rose should be in. there is a good argument on eithor side. my personal feeling is that he should be in. i know it was proven that he bet on the reds, but nobody else has come out and said they helped pete shave points or anything like that. what if he was only betting on the reds to win? does that make any diffrence? what would happen if it came out that somebody already in the HOF used steroids? LET PETE IN!!

December 28th, 2006, 07:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 183	I disagree with you Roxpert. I think it would be an excellent opportunity to recognize Rose's on-field accomplishments (he has the most hits for crying out loud) while providing baseball a forum to officially condemn his post-playing deeds as unacceptable to the game of baseball as a whole. There should be open discussion as to what he did. Not condoning nor condemning, but OPEN discussion, so that baseball can gather information into what patterns develop when someone like a Manager isn't doing everything he can to win the most games. You can't separate Rose from Baseball (as much as some would like). He's part of the very fabric of the game, and as such should be acknowledged. On another note, HF which Belle are you refering to? Albert (Joey)? I'm drawing a blank on that reference.

December 28th, 2006, 07:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 183	drew, we still have about 1ft in my frontyard (of natural snow, about 3ft of shoveled from my driveway) and so far it has snowed about 2in today.

December 29th, 2006, 12:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 902	RP: Yep, I'm talking about Albert Belle. I thought that might be a controversial choice. Belle is a modern-day Ralph Kiner. Same career length, same great peak, same below-average defense. The two are virtually indistinguishable. And they're both HOFers. Belle has no shot to actually get elected, but if he gets judged on his merits as a ballplayer rather than on his treatment of reporters (and Fernando Vina), he belongs.

December 29th, 2006, 01:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 197	What?? No Dante Bichette?

December 29th, 2006, 03:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 183	HF, I have to disagree with you. Albert has no business being included in the HOF. I can understand the Dale Murphy reference, he was a catalyst on the Braves when the Braves weren't any good, But Albert? He threw a ball at a person in the stands. That's not some "the writers don't like him because he dis'd them" issue, that's a "he should've been banished from the game for at least a year" type of issue.

December 29th, 2006, 03:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 902	I can't really argue with that. I'm just more interested in recognizing the game's best players than in making moral judgments. And Albert Belle was one hell of a baseball player.

December 29th, 2006, 09:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Any other Davey Concepcion fans out there? I'll stack him up against Phil Rizzuto and Pee Wee Reese anyday.

December 30th, 2006, 12:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 902	I wouldn't. Rizzuto was a better hitter, and a great defensive SS in his own right, and lost three prime years to the war. And the offensive gap between Reese and Concepcion is huge. And besides, both Reese and Rizzuto are lower-tier HOFers, guys who might not really belong. If we want to go down that road, then Jay Bell has a decent HOF case as well.

December 30th, 2006, 08:29 AM	#15 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 698	"I'm just more interested in recognizing the game's best players than in making moral judgments." with that said HF, doo you think pete rose should be in?