Jeff Baker

TheIncredibleRox · July 27th, 2008, 11:39 AM

Dear Mr. Baker,

Way to completely change my mind on your worth over the course of six weeks. Keep it up.

BigRapidsJackass · July 27th, 2008, 05:56 PM

Slowly, surely, over the course of this season, I've moved from big-time skepticism ("if he can learn 2B and all the corner positions, he might have a useful MLB career") to unabashed optimism ("this guy is more than competent at 2B, and 20-25 HR power isn't easy to find there").

I think just maybe we've solved that never-ending 2B problem ...

GerryInCS · July 28th, 2008, 08:09 AM

And yet Jayson Nix will continue to be on the 40-man roster

Dante Bichette · July 28th, 2008, 01:13 PM

I have always like Jeff Baker at the plate, although he did struggle last year. He seems to be the kind of player that needs consistent at bats to stay in the groove offensively. I was, however, very skeptical that he could play 2nd base, but he has looked solid there. I see no reason why he shouldn't be the every day 2nd baseman for the forseable future.

BigRapidsJackass · August 17th, 2008, 10:47 AM

Did Jeff Baker do something to get in Uncle Clint's doghouse?

Lefty pitching today, and Barmes starting again at 2B. Plus, Huson notes that Barmes is lifetime 2-for-16 against Odalis Perez (no, hitter vs. pitcher matchups don't mean anything, but Huson correctly notes that Hurdle and Quirk think they do).

So wouldn't Baker be the logical choice? Plus, with the Rox all but statistically eliminated from the playoff picture, wouldn't you rather see Baker get a nice run of playing time at 2B to see if you can count on him to handle the starting job in '09? We already know what Barmes is: a decent utility man.

What's going on here?

BigRapidsJackass · August 20th, 2008, 08:16 PM

Tonight: Barmes gets a night off, and Hurdle goes with Omar Quintanilla at 2B and bats him leadoff.

Is Baker hurting? Not that I've heard of. I think he is in Hurdle's doghouse, and Hurdle is going to punish me by making me watch Omar Q. get 5 leadoff plate appearances.

GerryInCS · August 20th, 2008, 11:48 PM

Q's line: 0 for 4, 1 BB, 1 R

Just the numbers we've gorwon used to getting this year.

Torrealba sucks. How could he not gun down Ardoin who is even slower on the base pads than he is. What did Iannetta do to not get a start in this series?

Sure they got the win tonight, but they are still a mediocre team at best with Hurdle and O'Dowd in charge.

BigRapidsJackass · August 21st, 2008, 08:34 AM

Gerry,aparrently Iannetta is down with a swollen toe. Let's hope he can go today. But I see no reason for Baker's disappearance.

Roxpert · September 9th, 2008, 07:10 PM

Can someone explain to me what happened to cause Clint Barmes to take all the playing time away from Jeff Baker? I haven't honestly been paying that much attention to the Rockies in the past month, but I did notice this, and Barmes went 0 for 5 tonight while leading off.

Baker was starting to remind me of a young Jeff Kent a couple months ago. And then he disappears in favor of the mighty Barmes. What gives?

BigRapidsJackass · September 9th, 2008, 08:09 PM

I caught the end of tonight's game. Rox lose in extra innings on -- of all things -- a balk by Buchholz.

First thought: damn, it's really, really over, isn't it. No September magic this year.

Second thought: all right, at least we know it's really, really over. Maybe Hurdle can start playing the guys who'll actually be important to this club next year? Spilborghs instead of Willy? Baker instead of Barmes?

This is a mystery to me. Simplest explanation: Baker somehow is perceived to have disrespected Hurdle and is buried deep within his doghouse. It's not like Barmes has been on fire the last couple months. August: 688 OPS. July: 685. Reminder: he'll turn 30 years old in the offseason. I'm convinced that he's a nice utility man, and maybe even a starter at SS on some club that doesn't already have a Tulo. But he's simply not the future here. And it astounds me that Hurdle doesn't seem to realize that.

Heltonfan · September 9th, 2008, 08:55 PM

Quote:

It's not like Barmes has been on fire the last couple months. August: 688 OPS. July: 685. Reminder: he'll turn 30 years old in the offseason. I'm convinced that he's a nice utility man, and maybe even a starter at SS on some club that doesn't already have a Tulo. But he's simply not the future here.

Change a couple names and numbers, and that paragraph applies just as well to Baker as it does to Barmes.

Baker has put up a .249 ABR this year and has no history suggesting he's capable of more than that. He currently projects at 0.31 WAR per season. If we ignore his defense at positions other than 2B, that number goes up to 0.51. If he can repeat his '08 performance, he'd be all the way up to 0.95. Whoop-dee-doo. If he's an important part of this club next year, we've got problems.

I don't have any problem with Hurdle preferring Barmes to Baker. Barmes' defensive advantage is the equivalent of 14 points of ABR. Barmes is outhitting Baker this year. Yeah, Baker projects better overall, because Barmes is older and really, really sucked in '06 and '07, but the difference is negligible. And if Hurdle thinks that the difference between them offensively is only, say, 10 points of ABR, rather than the 22 points that my projections say, I'm fine with that. The more important point here is that neither of these guys is worth a damn.

BigRapidsJackass · September 9th, 2008, 09:36 PM

I disagree HF.

I mean, I agree that the weight of the evidence strongly suggests that neither player is worth a damn going forward.

But I disagree about this. I'd say there's a chance -- not a big chance, but perhaps a 1 in 5 chance -- that Baker turns into a better than average hitter at 2B, and proves to be roughly average defensively at 2B. And that would be a very good thing for an organization that has absolutely nothing in the 2B pipeline.

On the other hand, I think we'll all agree that 2008 is about as good as it'll ever get for Clint Barmes. I'd suggest that he's more likely than Jeff Baker to last 5 more years in big league baseball (after all, Nick Punto is the starting SS now on what may very well be a playoff team). But he'll never, ever, be anything more than what he is.

So when your hopes for the offseason are gone, you go with the Baker and not the Barmes. I think that's just common sense.

Heltonfan · September 9th, 2008, 11:51 PM

Quote:

On the other hand, I think we'll all agree that 2008 is about as good as it'll ever get for Clint Barmes.

Sure, but that in itself isn't such a bad thing. 2008 Clint Barmes has been a very good player. Baker has never come anywhere close to the '08 Barmes level of performance over a stretch of more than 150 PA or so.

The problem with Barmes isn't that he has no upside, but that his downside (as exemplified by '06-'07) is uncommonly awful; if anything, I'd say that Barmes' upside is a bit higher than Baker's. After all, it's hard to argue that Barmes' upside is substantially lower than what he's done over 350 PA this year, and Baker has a hell of a long way to go to match that.

We've got two players playing as well as they ever have (on a seasonal basis). One is currently performing at a clip of 2.41 WAR per season, the other at 0.95 W/S, and you want to say that the latter has a significantly higher upside? That's a really tough sell.

HoyaRoxFan · September 10th, 2008, 05:50 AM

In a counter-intuitive way (due to the apparent results...) is it possible that because they think Baker has more upside and have anointed him their guy, Barmes is being showcased for the offseason? Or to nuance the logic or lack thereof a little more, they think Baker is the future and Barmes is the now like Taveras/Fowler and so they're still playing for this year?

I'm shooting fish in a barrel, I know. But it seems to me Hurdle isn't typically quiet about guys who are in the doghouse.

Roxpert · September 10th, 2008, 07:42 AM

I dunno, Heltonfan. Your ABR and WAR numbers are undeniable, however your comment that "Baker has never come anywhere close to the '08 Barmes level of performance over a stretch of more than 150 PA or so" leaves out the fact that Baker has had very few MLB stretches of 150+ PAs. In fact, he has a grand total of 505 PA over parts of four seasons, and rarely has had CONSISTENT playing time. On those few occasions when he has been in the lineup everyday, I seem to recall that he could heat up. His "streakiness", though, is what seems to have soured Hurdle on him.

When you consider that Barmes has 1,416 PAs over parts of 6 seasons versus Baker's limited chances, and the age factor, I would certainly take a chance on sticking with Baker at 2B for the rest of this season as the Rockies are out of it. Sure, neither player is likely to be worth squat as everyday solutions at the position, but Baker intrigues me more because he's 27 (an age where breakouts occur) and hasn't had the same MLB opportunities to fail that Barmes has had.

But what I don't understand is why Baker was being talked up by Hurdle when he was seeing everyday playing time, and then SUDDENLY he was banished to the end of the bench. There has to be more to the story than what the media has told us.

July 27th, 2008, 11:39 AM	#1 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 322	Jeff Baker Dear Mr. Baker, Way to completely change my mind on your worth over the course of six weeks. Keep it up.

July 28th, 2008, 08:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
GerryInCS New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 635	And yet Jayson Nix will continue to be on the 40-man roster __________________ Americans aren't afraid of Mexicans, Americans are afraid that Mexicans are turning America into Mexico.

August 20th, 2008, 11:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
GerryInCS New Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 635	Q's line: 0 for 4, 1 BB, 1 R Just the numbers we've gorwon used to getting this year. Torrealba sucks. How could he not gun down Ardoin who is even slower on the base pads than he is. What did Iannetta do to not get a start in this series? Sure they got the win tonight, but they are still a mediocre team at best with Hurdle and O'Dowd in charge. __________________ Americans aren't afraid of Mexicans, Americans are afraid that Mexicans are turning America into Mexico.

July 27th, 2008, 05:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Slowly, surely, over the course of this season, I've moved from big-time skepticism ("if he can learn 2B and all the corner positions, he might have a useful MLB career") to unabashed optimism ("this guy is more than competent at 2B, and 20-25 HR power isn't easy to find there"). I think just maybe we've solved that never-ending 2B problem ...

July 28th, 2008, 01:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
Dante Bichette Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 272	I have always like Jeff Baker at the plate, although he did struggle last year. He seems to be the kind of player that needs consistent at bats to stay in the groove offensively. I was, however, very skeptical that he could play 2nd base, but he has looked solid there. I see no reason why he shouldn't be the every day 2nd baseman for the forseable future.

August 17th, 2008, 10:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Did Jeff Baker do something to get in Uncle Clint's doghouse? Lefty pitching today, and Barmes starting again at 2B. Plus, Huson notes that Barmes is lifetime 2-for-16 against Odalis Perez (no, hitter vs. pitcher matchups don't mean anything, but Huson correctly notes that Hurdle and Quirk think they do). So wouldn't Baker be the logical choice? Plus, with the Rox all but statistically eliminated from the playoff picture, wouldn't you rather see Baker get a nice run of playing time at 2B to see if you can count on him to handle the starting job in '09? We already know what Barmes is: a decent utility man. What's going on here?

August 20th, 2008, 08:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Tonight: Barmes gets a night off, and Hurdle goes with Omar Quintanilla at 2B and bats him leadoff. Is Baker hurting? Not that I've heard of. I think he is in Hurdle's doghouse, and Hurdle is going to punish me by making me watch Omar Q. get 5 leadoff plate appearances.

August 21st, 2008, 08:34 AM	#8 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	Gerry,aparrently Iannetta is down with a swollen toe. Let's hope he can go today. But I see no reason for Baker's disappearance.

September 9th, 2008, 07:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	Can someone explain to me what happened to cause Clint Barmes to take all the playing time away from Jeff Baker? I haven't honestly been paying that much attention to the Rockies in the past month, but I did notice this, and Barmes went 0 for 5 tonight while leading off. Baker was starting to remind me of a young Jeff Kent a couple months ago. And then he disappears in favor of the mighty Barmes. What gives?

September 9th, 2008, 08:09 PM	#10 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	I caught the end of tonight's game. Rox lose in extra innings on -- of all things -- a balk by Buchholz. First thought: damn, it's really, really over, isn't it. No September magic this year. Second thought: all right, at least we know it's really, really over. Maybe Hurdle can start playing the guys who'll actually be important to this club next year? Spilborghs instead of Willy? Baker instead of Barmes? This is a mystery to me. Simplest explanation: Baker somehow is perceived to have disrespected Hurdle and is buried deep within his doghouse. It's not like Barmes has been on fire the last couple months. August: 688 OPS. July: 685. Reminder: he'll turn 30 years old in the offseason. I'm convinced that he's a nice utility man, and maybe even a starter at SS on some club that doesn't already have a Tulo. But he's simply not the future here. And it astounds me that Hurdle doesn't seem to realize that.

September 9th, 2008, 09:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,175	I disagree HF. I mean, I agree that the weight of the evidence strongly suggests that neither player is worth a damn going forward. But I disagree about this. I'd say there's a chance -- not a big chance, but perhaps a 1 in 5 chance -- that Baker turns into a better than average hitter at 2B, and proves to be roughly average defensively at 2B. And that would be a very good thing for an organization that has absolutely nothing in the 2B pipeline. On the other hand, I think we'll all agree that 2008 is about as good as it'll ever get for Clint Barmes. I'd suggest that he's more likely than Jeff Baker to last 5 more years in big league baseball (after all, Nick Punto is the starting SS now on what may very well be a playoff team). But he'll never, ever, be anything more than what he is. So when your hopes for the offseason are gone, you go with the Baker and not the Barmes. I think that's just common sense.

September 10th, 2008, 05:50 AM	#14 (permalink)
HoyaRoxFan Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 305	In a counter-intuitive way (due to the apparent results...) is it possible that because they think Baker has more upside and have anointed him their guy, Barmes is being showcased for the offseason? Or to nuance the logic or lack thereof a little more, they think Baker is the future and Barmes is the now like Taveras/Fowler and so they're still playing for this year? I'm shooting fish in a barrel, I know. But it seems to me Hurdle isn't typically quiet about guys who are in the doghouse.

September 10th, 2008, 07:42 AM	#15 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,082	I dunno, Heltonfan. Your ABR and WAR numbers are undeniable, however your comment that "Baker has never come anywhere close to the '08 Barmes level of performance over a stretch of more than 150 PA or so" leaves out the fact that Baker has had very few MLB stretches of 150+ PAs. In fact, he has a grand total of 505 PA over parts of four seasons, and rarely has had CONSISTENT playing time. On those few occasions when he has been in the lineup everyday, I seem to recall that he could heat up. His "streakiness", though, is what seems to have soured Hurdle on him. When you consider that Barmes has 1,416 PAs over parts of 6 seasons versus Baker's limited chances, and the age factor, I would certainly take a chance on sticking with Baker at 2B for the rest of this season as the Rockies are out of it. Sure, neither player is likely to be worth squat as everyday solutions at the position, but Baker intrigues me more because he's 27 (an age where breakouts occur) and hasn't had the same MLB opportunities to fail that Barmes has had. But what I don't understand is why Baker was being talked up by Hurdle when he was seeing everyday playing time, and then SUDDENLY he was banished to the end of the bench. There has to be more to the story than what the media has told us.