Jennings dealt to Houston - Page 2

denverbearsfan · 12-12-2006, 06:50 PM

I like the trade. Tavarez could be the best Rockies defensive center field ever, and with Coors big outfield that could offset his mediocre numbers at the plate. I think Jennings pitched over his head last season and is ready for a decline. Hirsh is the key player in this deal and long term he has the potential to be better than Jennings. Anything Bucholz gives us is gravy.

I say let Dealin Dan do his thing. In the past couple of years I've sensed a reluctance from the Rockies to make trades so as not to deal any fan favorites. Forget the fans and make good baseball trades (this looks like one) even if it means saying goodbye to some familiar faces. I hope Helton is next if the Rockies can get good value for him.

indianadrew · 12-12-2006, 06:50 PM

i am very optimistic about this trade. it seems to be good for both teams. very fair all around.

RMF · 12-12-2006, 06:52 PM

If the ball gets soggy again, those flyballs shouldn't hurt us.

sg8335aa · 12-12-2006, 06:55 PM

I HIGHLY doubt that O'Dowd is finished this off-season. With the glut of CFers on our roster (and Outfielders in general), I expect we'll be trading Sully (or Salazar/Choo/Barmes) to a team (READ: FLORIDA MARLINS) that desperatly need a CFer.

My prediction......we trade one of our CFers to Florida for a young pitching prospect.

Newman · 12-12-2006, 07:46 PM

Yeah we should get a lot for Cory Sullivan. Maybe a top ten prospect. <sarcasm>

Didn't like reading Roxpert's report on Hirsch. Too many fly balls.

So Cook is our ace now?

Great trade. Should solidify the clubhouse. They know no one will get a payday here. I don't think Matt Holliday will be getting that Rockies tattoo anytime soon.

Maybe 73 wins this year?

Below C-Level · 12-12-2006, 07:57 PM

Newman, I have to hand it to you. I'm actually growing to admire your unflinching commitment to pessimism and negativity in the face of any and all developments to the contrary. Maybe you and Matt Holliday can get a package deal on a pair of tattoos? I'm thinking maybe the angry red smiley face for you?

GoldGlove · 12-12-2006, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Below C-Level

Newman, I have to hand it to you. I'm actually growing to admire your unflinching commitment to pessimism and negativity in the face of any and all developments to the contrary. Maybe you and Matt Holliday can get a package deal on a pair of tattoos? I'm thinking maybe the angry red smiley face for you?

I'm assuming you're new around here, unless you're an old poster under a new name. If that's the case, I feel it's my duty to inform you that Newman (formerly known as General Clark) is synonymous with negativity towards the Rockies, so don't be put off by it...just treat it along the same lines of the sun rising in the east: it's guaranteed to happen every day and it doesn't show any sign of changing.

Newman · 12-12-2006, 10:11 PM

And why should my tune change? Have we won any rings lately? Ever?

History is on my side. What is the high water mark of this franchise? 83 wins?! Does that ever get you into the playoffs in a normal year?

I could wear rose colored glasses

, but that's not me.

We just lost our opening day starter from last year. I should be planning a World Series Party??

Below C-Level · 12-12-2006, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

We just lost our opening day starter from last year. I should be planning a World Series Party??

You lost him, huh? Well, I guess if that's the case then you also "found" a CF and upgraded 40% of your starting rotation.

Heltonfan · 12-12-2006, 10:41 PM

You should be recognizing that Hirsh, Buchholz, and Taveras give us a much better chance of winning in '08 and beyond than Jennings would have. You should be recognizing that the return we got for Jennings is vastly superior to the return the White Sox got for Freddy Garcia, whose situation was very comparable to JJ's. You should be recognizing that "history is on my side" is a logical fallacy. You should be recognizing that spending money is secondary to spending it on the right players, and that whenever you can exchange a player for an equally valuable, but much cheaper, group of players, it makes sense to do so. You should be recognizing that our current position in the success cycle (i.e. not yet quite ready for serious contention) makes this a better trade, not a worse one. There probably isn't a single GM except for Tim Purpura who thinks that the Astros received the most talent in this deal. I'm not asking for rose-colored glasses, I'm asking for objectivity.

bigheadache · 12-12-2006, 10:58 PM

Taveras is an exceptional defensive centerfielder and turns 25 this month. He's still getting better. As a rookie he had troubles at the beginning of the season judging flyballs in the big stadiums. He made the adjustment in the last half of 05 and 06 and that is no longer a problem. I think Willy is capable of winning a gold glove.

As a lead off hitter, he needs to be more paient. His batting average was ok, but he did not walk enough. He has no pwoer, not even in Coors, but he does have speed. He is probably the fastest guy to first from the right side in MLB. He is still learning to read the pitchers, so he gets picked off a bit more than I'd like. I think he will continue to improve and you will be very happy with Willy, Especially in centerfield.

Hirsh is a big guy who was the Texas League pitcher of the year in 2005 and the PCL pitcher of the year in 2006. His fastball is not overpowering and he will need pitch with more control than he did in his callup last year. If he can use his slider and curve ball effectively, he can be a very good pitcher.

Last year was Buchholz's first year without major injury since coming to Houston in the Billy Wagner trade. At times, he looked very good. At other times, he stunk up the joint. Considering how little he had pitched before last year, I think he could develop into a decent middle of the rotation type of pitcher.

wolf213 · 12-13-2006, 12:42 AM

This is a great great trade.

I believe Hirsh will match Jennings production pre 2006, and only improve within the next coming years.

Buchholz could become serviceable pitcher as well, and I think he's a good throw in.

This was mentioned on Purplerow, with Taveras, the Rockies will likely not aquire Darrin Erstad (thank God), and that alone is worth it. I see him as a poor mans Juan Pierre, with the potential to become a decent leadoff hitter in the next few years (.340-.350 OBP isn't out of the question I don't think)

Roxpert · 12-13-2006, 12:46 AM

Comparable player analogies:

Jason Hirsh = Scott Elarton (pre-injury)

Willy Taveras = Darren Lewis (ugh)

Taylor Buchholz = Poor man's Darryl Kile with (past) shoulder issues.

That's not bad for one guy who is a league-average inning's eater in Jason Jennings. BTW, my analogy for Jennings is a "poor man's Rick Reuschel".

wolf213 · 12-13-2006, 01:06 AM

I think the casual fans will see a lot of Juan Pierre in Taveras, and I really think they are the same type of player. I would like to see Taveras OBP higher, but with the longer grass and bigger allies I think its possible that he can be an effective leadoff hitter. His walk rates looked great in the Minors so he might be set to break out.

Again, I will miss Jennings but this is a very solid return, I don't think Jennings was as good as his stats say he was in 06, and I think Hirsh can easily outperform Jennings 04 and 05 seasons.

Rankal · 12-13-2006, 01:45 AM

I will miss Jennings, but this trade was probably one of the best scenarios out there. I'm surprised the Astros did this. Yeah, they like what they see out of Jennings, but considering he's only got one sub 4.00 ERA season thus far in 5 years wouldn't, in my opinion, be worth a top prospect.

Then again, look at what Gil Meche got in money.

Way to go Rox. Now just don't be stupid and trade all three away.

12-12-2006, 06:50 PM	#17 (permalink)
indianadrew Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: indianapolis Posts: 570	i am very optimistic about this trade. it seems to be good for both teams. very fair all around. Last edited by indianadrew; 12-12-2006 at 06:52 PM.

12-12-2006, 06:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
RMF Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 201	Soggy ball If the ball gets soggy again, those flyballs shouldn't hurt us.

12-12-2006, 06:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
denverbearsfan Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 17	I like the trade. Tavarez could be the best Rockies defensive center field ever, and with Coors big outfield that could offset his mediocre numbers at the plate. I think Jennings pitched over his head last season and is ready for a decline. Hirsh is the key player in this deal and long term he has the potential to be better than Jennings. Anything Bucholz gives us is gravy. I say let Dealin Dan do his thing. In the past couple of years I've sensed a reluctance from the Rockies to make trades so as not to deal any fan favorites. Forget the fans and make good baseball trades (this looks like one) even if it means saying goodbye to some familiar faces. I hope Helton is next if the Rockies can get good value for him.

12-12-2006, 06:55 PM	#19 (permalink)
sg8335aa Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 118	I HIGHLY doubt that O'Dowd is finished this off-season. With the glut of CFers on our roster (and Outfielders in general), I expect we'll be trading Sully (or Salazar/Choo/Barmes) to a team (READ: FLORIDA MARLINS) that desperatly need a CFer. My prediction......we trade one of our CFers to Florida for a young pitching prospect.

12-12-2006, 07:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 553	Yeah we should get a lot for Cory Sullivan. Maybe a top ten prospect. <sarcasm> Didn't like reading Roxpert's report on Hirsch. Too many fly balls. So Cook is our ace now? Great trade. Should solidify the clubhouse. They know no one will get a payday here. I don't think Matt Holliday will be getting that Rockies tattoo anytime soon. Maybe 73 wins this year?

12-12-2006, 07:57 PM	#21 (permalink)
Below C-Level Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 55	Newman, I have to hand it to you. I'm actually growing to admire your unflinching commitment to pessimism and negativity in the face of any and all developments to the contrary. Maybe you and Matt Holliday can get a package deal on a pair of tattoos? I'm thinking maybe the angry red smiley face for you?

12-12-2006, 10:11 PM	#23 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 553	And why should my tune change? Have we won any rings lately? Ever? History is on my side. What is the high water mark of this franchise? 83 wins?! Does that ever get you into the playoffs in a normal year? I could wear rose colored glasses , but that's not me. We just lost our opening day starter from last year. I should be planning a World Series Party??

12-12-2006, 10:41 PM	#25 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 855	You should be recognizing that Hirsh, Buchholz, and Taveras give us a much better chance of winning in '08 and beyond than Jennings would have. You should be recognizing that the return we got for Jennings is vastly superior to the return the White Sox got for Freddy Garcia, whose situation was very comparable to JJ's. You should be recognizing that "history is on my side" is a logical fallacy. You should be recognizing that spending money is secondary to spending it on the right players, and that whenever you can exchange a player for an equally valuable, but much cheaper, group of players, it makes sense to do so. You should be recognizing that our current position in the success cycle (i.e. not yet quite ready for serious contention) makes this a better trade, not a worse one. There probably isn't a single GM except for Tim Purpura who thinks that the Astros received the most talent in this deal. I'm not asking for rose-colored glasses, I'm asking for objectivity.

12-12-2006, 10:58 PM	#26 (permalink)
bigheadache Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roswell, NM Posts: 868	Taveras is an exceptional defensive centerfielder and turns 25 this month. He's still getting better. As a rookie he had troubles at the beginning of the season judging flyballs in the big stadiums. He made the adjustment in the last half of 05 and 06 and that is no longer a problem. I think Willy is capable of winning a gold glove. As a lead off hitter, he needs to be more paient. His batting average was ok, but he did not walk enough. He has no pwoer, not even in Coors, but he does have speed. He is probably the fastest guy to first from the right side in MLB. He is still learning to read the pitchers, so he gets picked off a bit more than I'd like. I think he will continue to improve and you will be very happy with Willy, Especially in centerfield. Hirsh is a big guy who was the Texas League pitcher of the year in 2005 and the PCL pitcher of the year in 2006. His fastball is not overpowering and he will need pitch with more control than he did in his callup last year. If he can use his slider and curve ball effectively, he can be a very good pitcher. Last year was Buchholz's first year without major injury since coming to Houston in the Billy Wagner trade. At times, he looked very good. At other times, he stunk up the joint. Considering how little he had pitched before last year, I think he could develop into a decent middle of the rotation type of pitcher.

12-13-2006, 12:42 AM	#27 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 194	This is a great great trade. I believe Hirsh will match Jennings production pre 2006, and only improve within the next coming years. Buchholz could become serviceable pitcher as well, and I think he's a good throw in. This was mentioned on Purplerow, with Taveras, the Rockies will likely not aquire Darrin Erstad (thank God), and that alone is worth it. I see him as a poor mans Juan Pierre, with the potential to become a decent leadoff hitter in the next few years (.340-.350 OBP isn't out of the question I don't think)

12-13-2006, 12:46 AM	#28 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,059	Comparable player analogies: Jason Hirsh = Scott Elarton (pre-injury) Willy Taveras = Darren Lewis (ugh) Taylor Buchholz = Poor man's Darryl Kile with (past) shoulder issues. That's not bad for one guy who is a league-average inning's eater in Jason Jennings. BTW, my analogy for Jennings is a "poor man's Rick Reuschel".

12-13-2006, 01:06 AM	#29 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 194	I think the casual fans will see a lot of Juan Pierre in Taveras, and I really think they are the same type of player. I would like to see Taveras OBP higher, but with the longer grass and bigger allies I think its possible that he can be an effective leadoff hitter. His walk rates looked great in the Minors so he might be set to break out. Again, I will miss Jennings but this is a very solid return, I don't think Jennings was as good as his stats say he was in 06, and I think Hirsh can easily outperform Jennings 04 and 05 seasons.

12-13-2006, 01:45 AM	#30 (permalink)
Rankal Banned Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 84	I will miss Jennings, but this trade was probably one of the best scenarios out there. I'm surprised the Astros did this. Yeah, they like what they see out of Jennings, but considering he's only got one sub 4.00 ERA season thus far in 5 years wouldn't, in my opinion, be worth a top prospect. Then again, look at what Gil Meche got in money. Way to go Rox. Now just don't be stupid and trade all three away.