Opportunity to deal with Red Sox?

Roxpert · 12-10-2006, 07:45 PM

Saw this item this morning in Rotoworld...

Quote:

Matsuzaka talks 'essentially broken down'

A well placed source told the Boston Herald that talks between the Red Sox and agent Scott Boras regarding Daisuke Matsuzaka have broken down.

It must have been someone from Boston's front office because, according to the paper, the source blamed Boras for stubbornly being unable to get over the flaws in the Japanese posting system, saying that he has been unwilling to negotiate and that he has acted disinterested in even making a deal. This sounds like another "leak" the Red Sox wanted to reach the media. The blame will go to Boras if no deal is struck, regardless of whether that's where it belongs. In the end, Matsuzaka, by all appearances, wants to come to the U.S. now, and his few quotes have suggested that he doesn't have a problem pitching for the Red Sox. If Matsuzaka wants a deal to get done, there should be common ground somewhere. Dec. 10 - 9:52 am et

Let's just say that the Red Sox end up NOT signing Matsuzaka. Presumably, they'd still be seeking right-handed starting pitching. They've also been briefly mentioned as having an interest in Todd Helton.

Soooooo......a creative GM could exploit this situation and propose the following trade:

Jason Jennings, Todd Helton, and Clint Barmes for Manny Ramirez, Dustin Pedroia, and Coco Crisp.

Naturally, some money would likely have to be sent to Boston to even this out a bit, but it could make loads of sense for both teams.

For the Rox, we would stick Manny in leftfield and convert Matt Holliday (a lousy defensive LF but a former 3rd baseman) to 1st base. Dustin Pedroia battles for both the SS and 2B jobs, or becomes our second utility infielder along with Jamey Carroll. Crisp takes over in centerfield.

For the Sox, Jennings would likely win 16+ games while eating 220 innings. Helton would remind older Bosox fans of Ted Williams and Yaz, and Barmes could contend for the 2nd base job that Pedroia was penciled in for. Barmes could be sold as this century's "Jody Reed" for Red Sox fans who aren't quite as old (though Reed was a much more patient hitter).

I know DOD pledged never to try to trade with Boston again after being jilted on the Shoppach deal, but c'mon! Opportunity knocks!!

Heltonfan · 12-10-2006, 08:12 PM

I'd love to see that happen, improbable as it is (with both Manny and Helton having to agree to the deal).

I ran your idea by a Red Sox fan buddy of mine. He says that Manny for Helton + cash is a fine idea, but Crisp and Pedroia is far too much to give up for Jennings. I'd have to agree... heck, those two are fairly likely to match Jennings in '07 value, let alone in future value.

If we offered up Fuentes instead of Barmes, though, I think Boston would have to pull the trigger. And I'd still like that deal from our perspective.

Also, I'd target Wily Mo Pena instead of Crisp. No, he's not a good CF, but neither is Coco. And I love Wily Mo's power potential.

Helton, Jennings, Fuentes, and cash for Manny, Pedroia, Pena, and David Murphy. Fun stuff.

madness · 12-10-2006, 09:09 PM

While no one understands what goes on inside the head of Manny it seems very unlikely that he would ok a trade to a team like the Rockies. Helton would likely OK the trade (going to a contender and helping the Rockies in the process) but what does Manny have to gain here other than using his 10/5 rights to leverage an option year or two at 20 million (which should be factored into any trade talks being discussed that involve him anyways).

Not a Wily Mo fan. I don't see why would need Manny or why he would want to come here. If we were able to turn around and ship him to someone else then I like the trade a lot more.

I still like this trade though - using Jenning's value to help sell Helton's contract is fine by me as long as there is appropriate value being exchanged overall in the deal. A hitter like Pedroia would be fun to watch and would help drive up the RBI numbers of the hitters in the heart of our order and could be a long term fixture at 2nd base. I don't mind trading Helton, Jennings OR Fuentes if we can get optimum value for them.

Also, if we deal Helton and keep Atkins then it seems like a better move to put Atkins back at first and leave him there for the long-term. Why convert Holliday only to lose him in a few years and then have to move Atkins across the diamond anyways? Course maybe we pencil in Koshansky. Who knows. I just hope that Matt's athleticism would make him a better 3rd baseman than Atkins is and it seems likely that Atkins is a lot better at first than he is at 3rd....

madness · 12-10-2006, 09:13 PM

To simplify things (sort of) what are the obstacles to us trading Helton + cash for Manny (and his desire option years) and then trading Manny? This is one of those deals that might be much easier as two simple deals than as one complex deal.

Who (outside of our division) is after Manny and is there anyone who would take Manny and his salary off of our hands in return for one premium prospect rather than the 3 or 4 being tossed out in the rumored trades between the Dodgers or Angels and Boston?

Roxpert · 12-10-2006, 10:42 PM

I would be hesitent to put Holliday at 3rd base, if that's what you're suggesting. He hasn't manned the position in years, had trouble with it in the minors, and had an elbow injury that necessitated his move to LF anyway in the minors. He wouldn't have to throw nearly as much playing 1B as he would at 3B. Atkins has also shown enough capability and improvement at the hot corner to make it unnecessary to move him back to 1st base.

Manny COULD (not would) approve a trade to the Rockies if Dan O'Dowd has any sort of relationship with him from their Cleveland days. DOD was director of the farm system when Manny came up, so he could sell Manny on the virtues of Colorado, and maybe be taken seriously. Or maybe not, but it would surely be worth a try.

I agree that Willy Mo Pena would give us a slugging CFer, even if his defense isn't the best. Keep Sullivan as a late inning replacement, in that case.

rockieprogress · 12-11-2006, 04:31 PM

I would be hesitant to put Holliday anywhere but the trading block. I don't think he's going to be a member of the team longer than about 2 years anyway, and the value of an All-Star OF with his bat is higher than a player that has/is learning a new position that is exposed as a substandard defensive liability. Its not certain if he could make the transition, so why dimish his value if he tanks with his glove (I think he already is substandard, but thats just me).

Baker makes any move with either Hawpe or Atkins going to 1B an easy transition IMO, so leave Holliday in LF where he retains his value.

Why does anyone think Helton would approve a trade to Boston?
I'm not sure he would.
And I don't think he would sign on for a trade to LA either. He likes the outdoors, and last I looked, neither of those cities has the outdoors as closeby as Denver does.

12-10-2006, 08:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Heltonfan Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Yerevan, Armenia Posts: 855	I'd love to see that happen, improbable as it is (with both Manny and Helton having to agree to the deal). I ran your idea by a Red Sox fan buddy of mine. He says that Manny for Helton + cash is a fine idea, but Crisp and Pedroia is far too much to give up for Jennings. I'd have to agree... heck, those two are fairly likely to match Jennings in '07 value, let alone in future value. If we offered up Fuentes instead of Barmes, though, I think Boston would have to pull the trigger. And I'd still like that deal from our perspective. Also, I'd target Wily Mo Pena instead of Crisp. No, he's not a good CF, but neither is Coco. And I love Wily Mo's power potential. Helton, Jennings, Fuentes, and cash for Manny, Pedroia, Pena, and David Murphy. Fun stuff. Last edited by Heltonfan; 12-10-2006 at 08:15 PM.

12-10-2006, 09:09 PM	#3 (permalink)
madness Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 20	While no one understands what goes on inside the head of Manny it seems very unlikely that he would ok a trade to a team like the Rockies. Helton would likely OK the trade (going to a contender and helping the Rockies in the process) but what does Manny have to gain here other than using his 10/5 rights to leverage an option year or two at 20 million (which should be factored into any trade talks being discussed that involve him anyways). Not a Wily Mo fan. I don't see why would need Manny or why he would want to come here. If we were able to turn around and ship him to someone else then I like the trade a lot more. I still like this trade though - using Jenning's value to help sell Helton's contract is fine by me as long as there is appropriate value being exchanged overall in the deal. A hitter like Pedroia would be fun to watch and would help drive up the RBI numbers of the hitters in the heart of our order and could be a long term fixture at 2nd base. I don't mind trading Helton, Jennings OR Fuentes if we can get optimum value for them. Also, if we deal Helton and keep Atkins then it seems like a better move to put Atkins back at first and leave him there for the long-term. Why convert Holliday only to lose him in a few years and then have to move Atkins across the diamond anyways? Course maybe we pencil in Koshansky. Who knows. I just hope that Matt's athleticism would make him a better 3rd baseman than Atkins is and it seems likely that Atkins is a lot better at first than he is at 3rd....

12-10-2006, 09:13 PM	#4 (permalink)
madness Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 20	To simplify things (sort of) what are the obstacles to us trading Helton + cash for Manny (and his desire option years) and then trading Manny? This is one of those deals that might be much easier as two simple deals than as one complex deal. Who (outside of our division) is after Manny and is there anyone who would take Manny and his salary off of our hands in return for one premium prospect rather than the 3 or 4 being tossed out in the rumored trades between the Dodgers or Angels and Boston?

12-10-2006, 10:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,059	I would be hesitent to put Holliday at 3rd base, if that's what you're suggesting. He hasn't manned the position in years, had trouble with it in the minors, and had an elbow injury that necessitated his move to LF anyway in the minors. He wouldn't have to throw nearly as much playing 1B as he would at 3B. Atkins has also shown enough capability and improvement at the hot corner to make it unnecessary to move him back to 1st base. Manny COULD (not would) approve a trade to the Rockies if Dan O'Dowd has any sort of relationship with him from their Cleveland days. DOD was director of the farm system when Manny came up, so he could sell Manny on the virtues of Colorado, and maybe be taken seriously. Or maybe not, but it would surely be worth a try. I agree that Willy Mo Pena would give us a slugging CFer, even if his defense isn't the best. Keep Sullivan as a late inning replacement, in that case.

12-11-2006, 04:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 183	I would be hesitant to put Holliday anywhere but the trading block. I don't think he's going to be a member of the team longer than about 2 years anyway, and the value of an All-Star OF with his bat is higher than a player that has/is learning a new position that is exposed as a substandard defensive liability. Its not certain if he could make the transition, so why dimish his value if he tanks with his glove (I think he already is substandard, but thats just me). Baker makes any move with either Hawpe or Atkins going to 1B an easy transition IMO, so leave Holliday in LF where he retains his value. Why does anyone think Helton would approve a trade to Boston? I'm not sure he would. And I don't think he would sign on for a trade to LA either. He likes the outdoors, and last I looked, neither of those cities has the outdoors as closeby as Denver does.