random off-topic thread - Page 66

Newman · 07-04-2008, 01:05 PM

LOL!!

Such black and white thinking, just like that from your leader George W. Bush.

It can be both, Bush and Oil Speculators. Things are hardly ever because of one factor. Are the Rockies losing strictly because of Todd Helton or poor relief pitching or untimely hitting. Isn't it almost always a bunch of reasons?

Now you're an economics major in college? From the Ayn Rand school of econ? I admit to not being an expert in that field. It also seems obvious that this is NOT simply a supply and demand issue. More drilling in America is not going to fix the problem short term OR long term.

I'm not an oil speculator. You may be, Incredible. I stick my dwindling wealth into several of the TSP funds that the govt lets us invest in. I'm hardly one of these oil speculators gobbling up all the Exxon stock.

What's wrong with populism, Incredible? I suppose you're opposed to profit sharing in baseball too. I'm guessing you're a closet Yankee or Red Sox fan. Root for the haves. Hope they crush the have nots day after day.

I want people to be smart but also to have a heart. Do you root for Snidely Whiplash in the movies? Do you root for Mr. Potter when you watch "It's a Wonderful Life" every Christmas. He was a crafty predatory lender. Smart dude. Your kind of guy? The ends justify the means. Let's live in Potterville, right, Incredible, where the wealthy live high on the hog and the rest of the people are dirt poor and miserable.

I'm not opposed to capitalism. I'm against price gouging. I'm against excessive profits. I rooted for George Bailey in that movie, not the EVIL Mr. Potter. I don't see why the oil industry has to make 17% profit just because they can.

I'm not a capitalist. I don't see where capitalism helps the everyday Joe like me. I don't make a profit as I deliver the mail. Neither does a cop or a fireman or a mechanic or most jobs. I don't own my own company. Very few people are actually capitalists, owners and CEOs. Most people are workers.

I don't see the govt as evil like Conservatives do. I don't want to privitize everything like your heroes Cheney and Rumsfeld and Crystol do. I don't see what Halliburton and KBR are doing, private contractors with no accountability, in Iraq - I don't see that as a good thing.

Where is the competition in the oil industry (oh yeah, the Evil Environmentalists won't allow it). IN normal economic theory when the price of a product is high other companies rush in to get a piece of the pie. That's not happening in oil and gas. And what are YOUR oil companies doing with their excessive profits? You defend them all the time. Are they drilling in Mexico? Colombia? Elsewhere? No. They are stuffing the money in their pockets. Are you getting really rich with your oil speculation, Incredible? Making a killing on Wall Street with your incredible brilliance? Dining out tonite at John Elway's with your latest dividend check from Sunoco? I didn't think so.

People vote their pocketbook. McCain will lose the upcoming election. Sure the radio talkers and Fox News pundits will sway some of the people, to be afraid, to be racists, to keep voting Republican, to vote a third Bush term because McCain is McSame. And there may be another war in the fall - the October surprise - war with Iran, started by Bush - be afraid - vote for Grandpa McCain because he has military experience blah blah blah. People are sick of this war just like they were sick of the Vietnam War. WE're not going to get every vote. We certainly won't get yours. But if the election is fair we will get enough votes and it will sink the Republican Party for decades, maybe forever. Good riddance.

TheIncredibleRox · 07-05-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

I'm not a capitalist.

I'm glad you admit that: I think many of the modern Left are truly not.

That doesn't make it anything less than disgusting.

Free markets, free minds, the right to choose your own destiny. Economic freedom is the force that has made this country as strong as it is, and has done more for humanity than any other single force in the world. It is the most moral, humane, and empowering basis for a society. Economic freedom is the driver of social freedom and open societies.

It's not something you want to phase out (though many on the modern left do). I'm anti-collectivism. Communism and socialism do not work; attempts by government to control, plan, or manipulate the economy on a large scale will always end in economic disaster, monopoly, or dictatorship.

I am for a society in which I have the right to choose my own destiny. That's precisely what this country was founded on, and in so doing became the first truly moral nation on this Earth.

Newman · 07-06-2008, 11:17 PM

Disgusting? That I'm not a capitalist? Again...words. You're a college student, Incredible, right? Do you own a company? Are you a CEO? How are you a "captialist"? Explain. What profit did you make on another's labor?

Oxford Desk Dicitonary: "economic system in which the production and distribution of goods depend on invested private capital and profit making." Me? I'm not producing goods or investing capital (except for my dwindling TSP account which is attached to the falling stock market). I don't make a profit by delivering mail. How am I a capitalist? Is it disgusting of me to ask that question?

Economic freedom? I'm free to pay $3.94/gal? Where's the freedom, Adam? When Bush started this war I was paying $1.27/gal.

Freedom? Now I'm free to pay $3.00 for a good loaf of bread whereas last month King Sooper's only charged me $2.50/good loaf. Freedom?

Free markets? Where? Every gas station on the drive to work charges within a penny of the same gouged price.

You say socialism doesn't work. How is capitalism working for the average person reading this site? Oh...without all that "competition" we would be paying $8/gal like they are in France. What's the price of gas in Communist China by the way? Might be worth a google.

When you bring morality into this discussion, you really lose me. Weren't we the last civilized nation in the world to outlaw slavery for example? Mexico did long before we did. So did Europe. Was that moral?

Is it moral for only the wealthy to be able to afford good healthcare here in America? Healthcare for a profit. I know, I know, your president Bush would say if you can't afford healthcare then just go to an emergency room. That's not a solution, Incredible. And that is hardly "moral".

How many innnocent people do you think we've killed in Iraq, Adam? Where's the morality in that? They never print those numbers. Conservative guesses are at 100,000 innocent civilians killed because of us. Is that moral? And for what?

Or are you one who thinks that our "smart bombs" only kill guilty people? That My Lai never happened. Haditha never happened. Gitmo never happened. Abu Graib never happened? The first truly moral nation on earth?

TheIncredibleRox · 07-07-2008, 12:48 AM

Newman,

Here is why I feel you need an economic education, and why I've gone into this discussion with you. Because I feel your anger is being misplaced.

The problems you describe above exists not because of free market forces, they exist because of the opposite: government controls.

The government manipulates those markets intensely, distorting the free market. They control where and when and how oil companies are allowed to get it out of the ground and give it to you. They subsidize the oil companies (through grants or tax breaks) to do research or produce things that you (the consumer) have no use for (or, more precisely, less of a use for then you would pay for those products/services). They tax the living hell out of it; between Federal and State taxes, did you know you're paying about 4-5x more to the government than to any oil companies profit margin? They regulate who can enter the market. They subsidize substitutes, like ethanol and soy, which artificially drive up the price of your bread and other goods.

These are not problems that arose from the free market, they are problems that arose because of breaches in the free market.

Quote:

I don't make a profit by delivering mail. How am I a capitalist?

That's not what capitalism means. You, trading your values (time, effort, skills, etc) in return for values (a paycheck, satisfaction in job experience, etc) is an act of capitalism. You are most certainly working for a profit.

The fact that you are working for a state institution muddles things a bit, but let's say for a moment the US mail system faced stiff external competition (and was not subsidized by taxpayers, so it would be run out of business if inefficient). That means that your employer pays you according to your value. How good/productive you are at your job, and how important your job is to the company, determine your compensation (monetary or otherwise). The most efficient deliverers of mail will then be paid the most to deliver mail. The competition means consumers receive their mail more efiiciently or more cheaply. You, competing amongst others in your institution, and your firm, competing against other firms, are striving for the maximum combination of personal production and value to the customer, which they receive on an ever-increasing basis. This is a good thing: the maximum combination of productivity, value, and efficiency, for yourself, the consumer, your company, and it's stakeholders.

It is breaches of this equation--by a large, monolithic, bumbling Federal government--which artificially disrupt this practice and lead to the kind of strife you're talking about.

I say this in all seriousness, and in full recognition of the fact that it's probably futile. But I hope you'll maybe just start to think a little more critically about the real source of these problems.

wolf213 · 07-07-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Wolf, I like this dialog we're having. I think it reveals a lot. I'm under NO illusion that neither of us will change his mind. I think that's what got my buddy Roxpert in so much trouble, mentally. He thought you others would see the light, once he unveiled the cobwebs, and therefore be a progressive like him (and me). It doesn't work that way. People vote on emotion, not intellect. Even "smart" people like us here.

Sorry it has taken me some time to respond, I have been extremely busy as of late... anyways it is good dialog to have, and while we might not agree on somethings, its good to see each others point of view. Smart people take into accounts both sides of an issue before making up his mind about it.

Quote:

If you ever watched Sicko by Michael Moore you would see that other countries have better healthcare systems, including Canada. I know that's a sentence that can be easily attacked, because Michael Moore is a fat slob and is easily attacked by el Rushbo, another fat slob, and his dittoheads, but Moore says a lot of good things and puts out a lot of good movies, if only people would watch them with an open mind.

I have watched Rodger and Me and Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore isn't attacked because he's a fat slob, he's attacked because he edits his movies and takes quotes out of context to present his point. I take everything he presents with a grain of salt.

Quote:

Wrong again, beef jerkey breath! You seem to have all these assumptions about Progressives. Were they put there by Hannity? Glenn Beck? Rush? Michael Savage? Mike Rosen? Dan Caplis? Peter Boyles? The list of righty radio talkers never ends. They own the airwaves and have hypnotized America with their far right wing propaganda.

As for Rush and Beck and Caplis, et al... they are all blow hards as well... and I don't care for them too much. However I do think Caplis makes some good points every now and then, and Craig Silverman is usually spot on in his analysis as well. Dr. Laura is an idiot.

As much as the Right has the radio, the left owns TV... so considering more people watch TV then listen to talk radio, I don't think you want to venture down this road...

[quote]
I get paid for doing my job. Isn't that how it should be? If I don't do my job I get in trouble. I don't want to be yelled at by my customers or my boss or my peers. I just want to do a good job and then go home and enjoy life. Is that any different than a fireman or a cop or a mechanic or a truck driver? What profit does a cop make? How is he a capitalist? What job do YOU have, Wolf? CEOs make profit. Workers get paid a salary, get paid a wage.

[quote]

I get paid for my job as does everyone else who works. I provide a service and get paid for doing it, thats how the free market works. I am in a way selling my services and getting a profit in return (my paycheck). If I don't provide a good enough service, then I will not get a good profit in return. If I don't improve my services through education or job training, then my pay will reflect it. For you information I too have a Government job, while being a full time student as well.

Quote:

Welfare. I think people should work for a living. But where are the jobs? Outsourced to India. Isn't that what Bush did in his two terms? And didn't it start with Clinton, and NAFTA? Why can't the govt create jobs like they did under FDR? The Repub refrain is to trust corporations to lift us out of this hole the economy is headed in. Trust the free market? Why? They only care about profit. They don't want regulation. It costs money to clean the tomatoes. That cuts into a CEOs profits. Why trust multinational corporations?

The reason we should trust the free market??? How about the fact that its been working for well over 300 years now.

Quote:

Welfare. But what is the Republican solution to welfare? Shoot the poor? Put them in ovens? Let them starve? What would Jesus do?

No, but I would love to put limits on it so that some girl with 5 kids can't make a living off of it. Too many people abuse the system right now, and thats what needs to be fixed. Put limits on how long you are allowed to receive benefits. I don't want my hard earned money to support some sluts kids who refuses to stop spreading her legs.

Quote:

You get your news from National Geographic mag? Interesting. My NPR sources tell me that Communist Chinese laborers are making 45 cents an hour, living in crowded substandard housing, etc. I would call that slave wages.

I get my news off of a magnitude of sources. Not just the liberal media or Air America. I don't shop at wallmart for much of the same reasons you do. I also don't support companies who are engaged in a new form of slavery called illeagle immigration.

Newman · 07-07-2008, 11:30 PM

[quote=TheIncredibleRox;216512]Newman,

The problems you describe above exists not because of free market forces, they exist because of the opposite: government controls.

Incredible, you need to mix in a few psychology courses along with some history courses. Human nature. Greed. The free market IS the problem and without government controls we would be no better than Communist China with it's pollution and salmonella outbreaks, bad water, and bad air, and lead painted cheap toys that they export to Walmart America for a profit.

The government manipulates those markets intensely, distorting the free market. They control where and when and how oil companies are allowed to get it out of the ground and give it to you. They subsidize the oil companies (through grants or tax breaks) to do research or produce things that you (the consumer) have no use for (or, more precisely, less of a use for then you would pay for those products/services). They tax the living hell out of it; between Federal and State taxes, did you know you're paying about 4-5x more to the government than to any oil companies profit margin? They regulate who can enter the market. They subsidize substitutes, like ethanol and soy, which artificially drive up the price of your bread and other goods.

History, Incredible. Read about the robber barons. Read about Republican Teddy Roosevelt, who was the trust buster, because you cannot trust huge corporations to be moral. What caused the Great Depression of 1929? Greed. Buying on margin. Lack of government controls on Wall STreet, similar to what's happening now.

These are not problems that arose from the free market, they are problems that arose because of breaches in the free market.

Trust the free market? Who is that good for? Wealthy people like Rockefellers and Kennedy's and McCain's wife. How does trusting the free market help normal working people? It doesn't. The free market wants cheap labor. That's why we have the illegal immigration problem we have today. NAFTA, which Clinton started and Bush kept going and McSame wants to continue, has been horrible for Americans and Mexicans, and very good for only the wealthy few.

Q: how does outsourcing all these jobs to India and Communist China help middle class Americans?

That's not what capitalism means. You, trading your values (time, effort, skills, etc) in return for values (a paycheck, satisfaction in job experience, etc) is an act of capitalism. You are most certainly working for a profit.

No no no. I gave you a working definition out of a dictionary. I get paid by the hour, a middle class wage. I certainly DON'T work for a profit. See Adam, this is where your argument falls apart. Just because I live in America, and am a typical American worker, doesn't mean I'm a capitalist. I'm just a worker. Period. A replaceable piece of meat. My boss would love to replace me (if he were a capitalist owner) for some illegal immigrant who would work for $10/hour without benefits. That way he'd make more profits. Fortunately we have a union (something the Republicans would love to eliminate).

The fact that you are working for a state institution muddles things a bit, but let's say for a moment the US mail system faced stiff external competition (and was not subsidized by taxpayers, so it would be run out of business if inefficient). That means that your employer pays you according to your value. How good/productive you are at your job, and how important your job is to the company, determine your compensation (monetary or otherwise). The most efficient deliverers of mail will then be paid the most to deliver mail. The competition means consumers receive their mail more efiiciently or more cheaply. You, competing amongst others in your institution, and your firm, competing against other firms, are striving for the maximum combination of personal production and value to the customer, which they receive on an ever-increasing basis. This is a good thing: the maximum combination of productivity, value, and efficiency, for yourself, the consumer, your company, and it's stakeholders.

It is breaches of this equation--by a large, monolithic, bumbling Federal government--which artificially disrupt this practice and lead to the kind of strife you're talking about.

I say this in all seriousness, and in full recognition of the fact that it's probably futile. But I hope you'll maybe just start to think a little more critically about the real source of these problems.

Mail delivery is a bad example. Think of jobs that have been outsourced. We used to make clothes in America. Tech support used to be something Americans did, not Indians with thick accents that you can't understand, but who will work for less. Why can't toys be made in America again? Why can't bicycles be American made by union workers who made a decent middle class wage?

I don't know why Republicans hate government so. What was your phrase "bumbling Federal government." Republicans are good at getting elected (using the fear card usually) but horrible at governing (I cite Ronald Reagan and the Bush family).

I wish you'd listen to Thom Hartmann, 760 radio, from 7-10pm weeknights. He talks economics. He explains it from a liberal point of view far better than I do. He also talks history as well as current events.

Tonight he was talking about how the policies of Alan Greenspan have destroyed our economy. These are Reagan and Bush policies. They reduced taxes on corporations but increased taxes on working men. Reagan preached that deficits don't matter. How many jobs have we lost monthly under W?

Every poll says that Americans believe our country is headed in the wrong direction, is on the wrong track. You can thank Republican philosophy and George W. Bush for that.

Newman · 07-08-2008, 09:00 AM

[quote=wolf213;216613]Sorry it has taken me some time to respond, I have been extremely busy as of late... anyways it is good dialog to have, and while we might not agree on somethings, its good to see each others point of view. Smart people take into accounts both sides of an issue before making up his mind about it.

I have watched Rodger and Me and Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore isn't attacked because he's a fat slob, he's attacked because he edits his movies and takes quotes out of context to present his point. I take everything he presents with a grain of salt.

Sure, he has a point of view. Who doesn't? How much information gathering does a person need to do before he makes up his mind? Todd Helton will never hit 49 homers again. I'm sure of it. I just wrote it. Done. Made a decision. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore (if he had a radio program) and I agree with Moore more often. Period.

But it's the people in the middle who will decide this election. That kills me. They don't care. They can't make up their mind and yet the future of the country is in their hands. Go figure!

As for Rush and Beck and Caplis, et al... they are all blow hards as well... and I don't care for them too much. However I do think Caplis makes some good points every now and then, and Craig Silverman is usually spot on in his analysis as well. Dr. Laura is an idiot.

As much as the Right has the radio, the left owns TV... so considering more people watch TV then listen to talk radio, I don't think you want to venture down this road...

I'll venture. Who is liberal on tv anymore? Only Keith Olbermann on the cable networks and who watches mainstream tv anymore? Again, if you care about the news you'll get cable or you will go to blogs or both. Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, all of Fox News, they are all Conservative. Dan Caplis is a crusading Catholic anti abortion rights activist who is unlistenable. You're better off listening to NPR at that time, or music, or sports talk if you're stuck in your car. And Silverman is a wimp. Doesn't make strong points. He is Alan Colmes to Caplis' Hannity. The weak little brother - a sellout.

I get paid for my job as does everyone else who works. I provide a service and get paid for doing it, thats how the free market works. I am in a way selling my services and getting a profit in return (my paycheck). If I don't provide a good enough service, then I will not get a good profit in return. If I don't improve my services through education or job training, then my pay will reflect it. For you information I too have a Government job, while being a full time student as well.

Profit? What are they teaching you kids these days. Words matter. You sound just like Incredible. You get paid a wage or a salary, not a profit. Do I have to grab a dictionary? Profit is something you make when you sell something like a widget. It's what's left over after cost of making the widget. Then you figure in how much profit you want, add that to the price of the widget. Do you want a 3% profit or a 17% profit? What will the public pay? How greedy are you?

If your job is picking apples, you get paid by the hour, or by the bushel. You get paid a wage, or a salary. Your boss makes a profit when he sells the apples at market. If you repair computers you get paid by the hour most likely or by the job. Again, where's the profit? The client has a broken computer. He hires you to fix it. Pays you a price for your service. Profit?

The reason we should trust the free market??? How about the fact that its been working for well over 300 years now.

And periodically it fails, like in 1929 with the Great Depression.

Again, who benefits from the "free market"? And how is it free anyway? Why are jobs being outsourced to foreign lands? This is done by CEOs who make these decisions so pollution controls can be ignored and workers will be employed at slave wages so more PROFIT will be made by the capitalists. Why aren't bikes still made at the Huffy plant in Buffalo? Why aren't tee shirts still made in Nashville? Labor is cheaper in Guatamala and China. Capitalists want to make 17% profit rather than 3%. Greed.

No, but I would love to put limits on it so that some girl with 5 kids can't make a living off of it. Too many people abuse the system right now, and thats what needs to be fixed. Put limits on how long you are allowed to receive benefits. I don't want my hard earned money to support some sluts kids who refuses to stop spreading her legs.

Sterilize them? What would Hitler do? Put them in ovens? Bush ignored Katrina victims. Is that the Repub answer to poverty? Of course we need welfare reform. Who opposes that? A jobs program? Repubs want private industry to solve these problems. Privitize poverty? That won't happen. We need a modern day FDR and McCain isn't him.

I get my news off of a magnitude of sources. Not just the liberal media or Air America. I don't shop at wallmart for much of the same reasons you do. I also don't support companies who are engaged in a new form of slavery called illeagle immigration.

Good for you wolf. And it ain't easy to "buy American" anymore. Just about everything I own is made in Communist China or elsewhere except for my postal uniforms. We need new leadership, change, to turn this around. McCain is just Bush's third term.

TheIncredibleRox · 07-08-2008, 01:23 PM

Communist China is an example of a lack of government controls, and a lack of government controls caused the Great Depression? Jesus... you're so cute.

Your arguments are entirely emotional. When you do try to throw sparsse facts in, you tend to get them ass-backwards, like above.

wolf213 · 07-08-2008, 02:33 PM

On a lighter note, I think I might have something to do tomorrow after my Physics Class gets over:

Believer: Gas prices mandate UFO disclosure - The Denver Post

TheIncredibleRox · 07-08-2008, 04:37 PM

Wolf, are you at CU-Denver or Metro? I'm there M/W this summer.

wolf213 · 07-08-2008, 04:47 PM

Metro, M-W as well.

TheIncredibleRox · 07-08-2008, 05:13 PM

No kidding. We should catch a lunchtime beer at Pete's sometime. I'll PM you.

wolf213 · 07-08-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleRox

No kidding. We should catch a lunchtime beer at Pete's sometime. I'll PM you.

Sounds good, I'm mainly there at night this summer, but come fall I should be there during the day... send me a PM

Newman · 07-10-2008, 08:36 AM

Hey, whattabout ME? I wouldn't mind a beer with my baseball buds in this 95 degree heat!

Yeah, you're right...too far to drive with these Republican gas prices. $3.99/gal at my Safeway station on the way to work yesterday.

The "emotional" card, Adam? Such a Rush Limbaugh (huge new contract and he can't even hit righties) argument. What I learned from Rush is that you attack an opponent at their strength. That's what they did to John Kerry and his Vietnam War record, whereas Bush was a deserter, went AWOL from his safe National Guard Unit. In the end, with all the pounding from the righty controlled media they turned Kerry into a coward and Bush into some kind of war hero. The power of propaganda. How will they attack Barack? What's his strength? His intelligence? Call him an elitist - that's the ticket!

Q: what caused the Great Depression? Lack of govt controls on Wall Street was a big part of it. At least that's what they taught me in public schools. Maybe you learned something different in your lily white private school, Incredible?

Ted Koppel is running a 4 parter on Communist China on the Discovery Channel. Last night was part one. Good stuff. How can any of these factory workers in Shanghai afford to buy American cars at the wages they get paid? It's all about cheap slave wages, cheap labor. Ayn Rand would love slave wages, right? Whatever smart industrialists can get away with is fine with the far right. Moral? The lower the wage the more profit that captialist Communist Chinese make, right Incredible? That's the path you support. Very cute.

Smart capitalists who fleece stupid people with predatory loans is all well and good with the far right. How is that moral, Adam?

BigRapidsJackass · 07-10-2008, 11:57 PM

How will they attack Barack?

Same old way. McCain is already running that nutty commercial that "contrasts" McCain's experiences in 1967 with someone else's experiences in the Summer of Love. Which is interesting, because Obama was born in the same year as me, and I can tell you what I was doing in the Summer of Love: playing tag in my parents' backyard with the other incoming 1st Graders.

Stupid as it is, no doubt they've tested it on focus groups (mostly seniors) and think it'll work. Taint by association with those other hippie Dems. Plus NPR did a story today about how a lot of hispanics are convinced that Obama first abandoned the Muslim religion, and now he's abandoning Christianity. Look for McCain's proxies to use the name "Hussein" approximately 100,000 times this summer.

Obama is obviously good at theater, and the Repubs are probably scared s***less by the whole Invesco Field thing. He'll come out of the DNC with a 15 point lead. The only way to chip away is through the slander and innuendo machine.

Which is a shame, because there's a lot of half-baked and just plain stupid policy proposals pouring out of Obama right now.

One interesting thing: Mickey Kaus at Slate.com was the first to notice it, but I think we'll be hearing a lot more about it soon. At what point does a slightly greater degree of peace and stability in Iraq (coupled with the al-Maliki Govt -- the Govt we saw installed through the rough hewn democratic process -- calling on us to get the hell out) start to cut in Obama's favor? What's McCain left with then?

Oh, by the way: Wes Clark is right. Getting shot down and being a POW does not necessarily make you a good presidential candidate, or a good executive.

And Phil Gram is right, too: this is a nation of whiners.

Maybe I just wish we had presidential candidates who were willing to say such obvious truths themselves instead of letting their stooges do the dirty work.

07-04-2008, 01:05 PM	#976 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 521	LOL!! Such black and white thinking, just like that from your leader George W. Bush. It can be both, Bush and Oil Speculators. Things are hardly ever because of one factor. Are the Rockies losing strictly because of Todd Helton or poor relief pitching or untimely hitting. Isn't it almost always a bunch of reasons? Now you're an economics major in college? From the Ayn Rand school of econ? I admit to not being an expert in that field. It also seems obvious that this is NOT simply a supply and demand issue. More drilling in America is not going to fix the problem short term OR long term. I'm not an oil speculator. You may be, Incredible. I stick my dwindling wealth into several of the TSP funds that the govt lets us invest in. I'm hardly one of these oil speculators gobbling up all the Exxon stock. What's wrong with populism, Incredible? I suppose you're opposed to profit sharing in baseball too. I'm guessing you're a closet Yankee or Red Sox fan. Root for the haves. Hope they crush the have nots day after day. I want people to be smart but also to have a heart. Do you root for Snidely Whiplash in the movies? Do you root for Mr. Potter when you watch "It's a Wonderful Life" every Christmas. He was a crafty predatory lender. Smart dude. Your kind of guy? The ends justify the means. Let's live in Potterville, right, Incredible, where the wealthy live high on the hog and the rest of the people are dirt poor and miserable. I'm not opposed to capitalism. I'm against price gouging. I'm against excessive profits. I rooted for George Bailey in that movie, not the EVIL Mr. Potter. I don't see why the oil industry has to make 17% profit just because they can. I'm not a capitalist. I don't see where capitalism helps the everyday Joe like me. I don't make a profit as I deliver the mail. Neither does a cop or a fireman or a mechanic or most jobs. I don't own my own company. Very few people are actually capitalists, owners and CEOs. Most people are workers. I don't see the govt as evil like Conservatives do. I don't want to privitize everything like your heroes Cheney and Rumsfeld and Crystol do. I don't see what Halliburton and KBR are doing, private contractors with no accountability, in Iraq - I don't see that as a good thing. Where is the competition in the oil industry (oh yeah, the Evil Environmentalists won't allow it). IN normal economic theory when the price of a product is high other companies rush in to get a piece of the pie. That's not happening in oil and gas. And what are YOUR oil companies doing with their excessive profits? You defend them all the time. Are they drilling in Mexico? Colombia? Elsewhere? No. They are stuffing the money in their pockets. Are you getting really rich with your oil speculation, Incredible? Making a killing on Wall Street with your incredible brilliance? Dining out tonite at John Elway's with your latest dividend check from Sunoco? I didn't think so. People vote their pocketbook. McCain will lose the upcoming election. Sure the radio talkers and Fox News pundits will sway some of the people, to be afraid, to be racists, to keep voting Republican, to vote a third Bush term because McCain is McSame. And there may be another war in the fall - the October surprise - war with Iran, started by Bush - be afraid - vote for Grandpa McCain because he has military experience blah blah blah. People are sick of this war just like they were sick of the Vietnam War. WE're not going to get every vote. We certainly won't get yours. But if the election is fair we will get enough votes and it will sink the Republican Party for decades, maybe forever. Good riddance. Last edited by Newman; 07-04-2008 at 01:14 PM.

07-06-2008, 11:17 PM	#978 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 521	Disgusting? That I'm not a capitalist? Again...words. You're a college student, Incredible, right? Do you own a company? Are you a CEO? How are you a "captialist"? Explain. What profit did you make on another's labor? Oxford Desk Dicitonary: "economic system in which the production and distribution of goods depend on invested private capital and profit making." Me? I'm not producing goods or investing capital (except for my dwindling TSP account which is attached to the falling stock market). I don't make a profit by delivering mail. How am I a capitalist? Is it disgusting of me to ask that question? Economic freedom? I'm free to pay $3.94/gal? Where's the freedom, Adam? When Bush started this war I was paying $1.27/gal. Freedom? Now I'm free to pay $3.00 for a good loaf of bread whereas last month King Sooper's only charged me $2.50/good loaf. Freedom? Free markets? Where? Every gas station on the drive to work charges within a penny of the same gouged price. You say socialism doesn't work. How is capitalism working for the average person reading this site? Oh...without all that "competition" we would be paying $8/gal like they are in France. What's the price of gas in Communist China by the way? Might be worth a google. When you bring morality into this discussion, you really lose me. Weren't we the last civilized nation in the world to outlaw slavery for example? Mexico did long before we did. So did Europe. Was that moral? Is it moral for only the wealthy to be able to afford good healthcare here in America? Healthcare for a profit. I know, I know, your president Bush would say if you can't afford healthcare then just go to an emergency room. That's not a solution, Incredible. And that is hardly "moral". How many innnocent people do you think we've killed in Iraq, Adam? Where's the morality in that? They never print those numbers. Conservative guesses are at 100,000 innocent civilians killed because of us. Is that moral? And for what? Or are you one who thinks that our "smart bombs" only kill guilty people? That My Lai never happened. Haditha never happened. Gitmo never happened. Abu Graib never happened? The first truly moral nation on earth? Last edited by Newman; 07-06-2008 at 11:35 PM.

07-08-2008, 09:00 AM	#982 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 521	McCain doesn't know how to use a computer! [quote=wolf213;216613]Sorry it has taken me some time to respond, I have been extremely busy as of late... anyways it is good dialog to have, and while we might not agree on somethings, its good to see each others point of view. Smart people take into accounts both sides of an issue before making up his mind about it. I have watched Rodger and Me and Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore isn't attacked because he's a fat slob, he's attacked because he edits his movies and takes quotes out of context to present his point. I take everything he presents with a grain of salt. Sure, he has a point of view. Who doesn't? How much information gathering does a person need to do before he makes up his mind? Todd Helton will never hit 49 homers again. I'm sure of it. I just wrote it. Done. Made a decision. I listen to Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore (if he had a radio program) and I agree with Moore more often. Period. But it's the people in the middle who will decide this election. That kills me. They don't care. They can't make up their mind and yet the future of the country is in their hands. Go figure! As for Rush and Beck and Caplis, et al... they are all blow hards as well... and I don't care for them too much. However I do think Caplis makes some good points every now and then, and Craig Silverman is usually spot on in his analysis as well. Dr. Laura is an idiot. As much as the Right has the radio, the left owns TV... so considering more people watch TV then listen to talk radio, I don't think you want to venture down this road... I'll venture. Who is liberal on tv anymore? Only Keith Olbermann on the cable networks and who watches mainstream tv anymore? Again, if you care about the news you'll get cable or you will go to blogs or both. Lou Dobbs, Glenn Beck, all of Fox News, they are all Conservative. Dan Caplis is a crusading Catholic anti abortion rights activist who is unlistenable. You're better off listening to NPR at that time, or music, or sports talk if you're stuck in your car. And Silverman is a wimp. Doesn't make strong points. He is Alan Colmes to Caplis' Hannity. The weak little brother - a sellout. I get paid for my job as does everyone else who works. I provide a service and get paid for doing it, thats how the free market works. I am in a way selling my services and getting a profit in return (my paycheck). If I don't provide a good enough service, then I will not get a good profit in return. If I don't improve my services through education or job training, then my pay will reflect it. For you information I too have a Government job, while being a full time student as well. Profit? What are they teaching you kids these days. Words matter. You sound just like Incredible. You get paid a wage or a salary, not a profit. Do I have to grab a dictionary? Profit is something you make when you sell something like a widget. It's what's left over after cost of making the widget. Then you figure in how much profit you want, add that to the price of the widget. Do you want a 3% profit or a 17% profit? What will the public pay? How greedy are you? If your job is picking apples, you get paid by the hour, or by the bushel. You get paid a wage, or a salary. Your boss makes a profit when he sells the apples at market. If you repair computers you get paid by the hour most likely or by the job. Again, where's the profit? The client has a broken computer. He hires you to fix it. Pays you a price for your service. Profit? The reason we should trust the free market??? How about the fact that its been working for well over 300 years now. And periodically it fails, like in 1929 with the Great Depression. Again, who benefits from the "free market"? And how is it free anyway? Why are jobs being outsourced to foreign lands? This is done by CEOs who make these decisions so pollution controls can be ignored and workers will be employed at slave wages so more PROFIT will be made by the capitalists. Why aren't bikes still made at the Huffy plant in Buffalo? Why aren't tee shirts still made in Nashville? Labor is cheaper in Guatamala and China. Capitalists want to make 17% profit rather than 3%. Greed. No, but I would love to put limits on it so that some girl with 5 kids can't make a living off of it. Too many people abuse the system right now, and thats what needs to be fixed. Put limits on how long you are allowed to receive benefits. I don't want my hard earned money to support some sluts kids who refuses to stop spreading her legs. Sterilize them? What would Hitler do? Put them in ovens? Bush ignored Katrina victims. Is that the Repub answer to poverty? Of course we need welfare reform. Who opposes that? A jobs program? Repubs want private industry to solve these problems. Privitize poverty? That won't happen. We need a modern day FDR and McCain isn't him. I get my news off of a magnitude of sources. Not just the liberal media or Air America. I don't shop at wallmart for much of the same reasons you do. I also don't support companies who are engaged in a new form of slavery called illeagle immigration. Good for you wolf. And it ain't easy to "buy American" anymore. Just about everything I own is made in Communist China or elsewhere except for my postal uniforms. We need new leadership, change, to turn this around. McCain is just Bush's third term.

07-10-2008, 08:36 AM	#989 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 521	Hey, whattabout ME? I wouldn't mind a beer with my baseball buds in this 95 degree heat! Yeah, you're right...too far to drive with these Republican gas prices. $3.99/gal at my Safeway station on the way to work yesterday. The "emotional" card, Adam? Such a Rush Limbaugh (huge new contract and he can't even hit righties) argument. What I learned from Rush is that you attack an opponent at their strength. That's what they did to John Kerry and his Vietnam War record, whereas Bush was a deserter, went AWOL from his safe National Guard Unit. In the end, with all the pounding from the righty controlled media they turned Kerry into a coward and Bush into some kind of war hero. The power of propaganda. How will they attack Barack? What's his strength? His intelligence? Call him an elitist - that's the ticket! Q: what caused the Great Depression? Lack of govt controls on Wall Street was a big part of it. At least that's what they taught me in public schools. Maybe you learned something different in your lily white private school, Incredible? Ted Koppel is running a 4 parter on Communist China on the Discovery Channel. Last night was part one. Good stuff. How can any of these factory workers in Shanghai afford to buy American cars at the wages they get paid? It's all about cheap slave wages, cheap labor. Ayn Rand would love slave wages, right? Whatever smart industrialists can get away with is fine with the far right. Moral? The lower the wage the more profit that captialist Communist Chinese make, right Incredible? That's the path you support. Very cute. Smart capitalists who fleece stupid people with predatory loans is all well and good with the far right. How is that moral, Adam? Last edited by Newman; 07-10-2008 at 08:39 AM.

07-07-2008, 11:30 PM	#981 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 521	[quote=TheIncredibleRox;216512]Newman, The problems you describe above exists not because of free market forces, they exist because of the opposite: government controls. Incredible, you need to mix in a few psychology courses along with some history courses. Human nature. Greed. The free market IS the problem and without government controls we would be no better than Communist China with it's pollution and salmonella outbreaks, bad water, and bad air, and lead painted cheap toys that they export to Walmart America for a profit. The government manipulates those markets intensely, distorting the free market. They control where and when and how oil companies are allowed to get it out of the ground and give it to you. They subsidize the oil companies (through grants or tax breaks) to do research or produce things that you (the consumer) have no use for (or, more precisely, less of a use for then you would pay for those products/services). They tax the living hell out of it; between Federal and State taxes, did you know you're paying about 4-5x more to the government than to any oil companies profit margin? They regulate who can enter the market. They subsidize substitutes, like ethanol and soy, which artificially drive up the price of your bread and other goods. History, Incredible. Read about the robber barons. Read about Republican Teddy Roosevelt, who was the trust buster, because you cannot trust huge corporations to be moral. What caused the Great Depression of 1929? Greed. Buying on margin. Lack of government controls on Wall STreet, similar to what's happening now. These are not problems that arose from the free market, they are problems that arose because of breaches in the free market. Trust the free market? Who is that good for? Wealthy people like Rockefellers and Kennedy's and McCain's wife. How does trusting the free market help normal working people? It doesn't. The free market wants cheap labor. That's why we have the illegal immigration problem we have today. NAFTA, which Clinton started and Bush kept going and McSame wants to continue, has been horrible for Americans and Mexicans, and very good for only the wealthy few. Q: how does outsourcing all these jobs to India and Communist China help middle class Americans? That's not what capitalism means. You, trading your values (time, effort, skills, etc) in return for values (a paycheck, satisfaction in job experience, etc) is an act of capitalism. You are most certainly working for a profit. No no no. I gave you a working definition out of a dictionary. I get paid by the hour, a middle class wage. I certainly DON'T work for a profit. See Adam, this is where your argument falls apart. Just because I live in America, and am a typical American worker, doesn't mean I'm a capitalist. I'm just a worker. Period. A replaceable piece of meat. My boss would love to replace me (if he were a capitalist owner) for some illegal immigrant who would work for $10/hour without benefits. That way he'd make more profits. Fortunately we have a union (something the Republicans would love to eliminate). The fact that you are working for a state institution muddles things a bit, but let's say for a moment the US mail system faced stiff external competition (and was not subsidized by taxpayers, so it would be run out of business if inefficient). That means that your employer pays you according to your value. How good/productive you are at your job, and how important your job is to the company, determine your compensation (monetary or otherwise). The most efficient deliverers of mail will then be paid the most to deliver mail. The competition means consumers receive their mail more efiiciently or more cheaply. You, competing amongst others in your institution, and your firm, competing against other firms, are striving for the maximum combination of personal production and value to the customer, which they receive on an ever-increasing basis. This is a good thing: the maximum combination of productivity, value, and efficiency, for yourself, the consumer, your company, and it's stakeholders. It is breaches of this equation--by a large, monolithic, bumbling Federal government--which artificially disrupt this practice and lead to the kind of strife you're talking about. I say this in all seriousness, and in full recognition of the fact that it's probably futile. But I hope you'll maybe just start to think a little more critically about the real source of these problems. Mail delivery is a bad example. Think of jobs that have been outsourced. We used to make clothes in America. Tech support used to be something Americans did, not Indians with thick accents that you can't understand, but who will work for less. Why can't toys be made in America again? Why can't bicycles be American made by union workers who made a decent middle class wage? I don't know why Republicans hate government so. What was your phrase "bumbling Federal government." Republicans are good at getting elected (using the fear card usually) but horrible at governing (I cite Ronald Reagan and the Bush family). I wish you'd listen to Thom Hartmann, 760 radio, from 7-10pm weeknights. He talks economics. He explains it from a liberal point of view far better than I do. He also talks history as well as current events. Tonight he was talking about how the policies of Alan Greenspan have destroyed our economy. These are Reagan and Bush policies. They reduced taxes on corporations but increased taxes on working men. Reagan preached that deficits don't matter. How many jobs have we lost monthly under W? Every poll says that Americans believe our country is headed in the wrong direction, is on the wrong track. You can thank Republican philosophy and George W. Bush for that.

07-08-2008, 01:23 PM	#983 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 268	Communist China is an example of a lack of government controls, and a lack of government controls caused the Great Depression? Jesus... you're so cute. Your arguments are entirely emotional. When you do try to throw sparsse facts in, you tend to get them ass-backwards, like above.

07-08-2008, 02:33 PM	#984 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 188	On a lighter note, I think I might have something to do tomorrow after my Physics Class gets over: Believer: Gas prices mandate UFO disclosure - The Denver Post

07-08-2008, 04:37 PM	#985 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 268	Wolf, are you at CU-Denver or Metro? I'm there M/W this summer.

07-08-2008, 04:47 PM	#986 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 188	Metro, M-W as well.

07-08-2008, 05:13 PM	#987 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 268	No kidding. We should catch a lunchtime beer at Pete's sometime. I'll PM you.

07-10-2008, 11:57 PM	#990 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,101	How will they attack Barack? Same old way. McCain is already running that nutty commercial that "contrasts" McCain's experiences in 1967 with someone else's experiences in the Summer of Love. Which is interesting, because Obama was born in the same year as me, and I can tell you what I was doing in the Summer of Love: playing tag in my parents' backyard with the other incoming 1st Graders. Stupid as it is, no doubt they've tested it on focus groups (mostly seniors) and think it'll work. Taint by association with those other hippie Dems. Plus NPR did a story today about how a lot of hispanics are convinced that Obama first abandoned the Muslim religion, and now he's abandoning Christianity. Look for McCain's proxies to use the name "Hussein" approximately 100,000 times this summer. Obama is obviously good at theater, and the Repubs are probably scared s**less by the whole Invesco Field thing. He'll come out of the DNC with a 15 point lead. The only way to chip away is through the slander and innuendo machine. Which is a shame, because there's a lot of half-baked and just plain stupid policy proposals pouring out of Obama right now. One interesting thing: Mickey Kaus at Slate.com was the first to notice it, but I think we'll be hearing a lot more about it soon. At what point does a slightly greater degree of peace and stability in Iraq (coupled with the al-Maliki Govt -- the Govt we saw installed through the rough hewn democratic process -- calling on us to get the hell out) start to cut in Obama's* favor? What's McCain left with then? Oh, by the way: Wes Clark is right. Getting shot down and being a POW does not necessarily make you a good presidential candidate, or a good executive. And Phil Gram is right, too: this is a nation of whiners. Maybe I just wish we had presidential candidates who were willing to say such obvious truths themselves instead of letting their stooges do the dirty work.