random off-topic thread - Page 65

Newman · 06-23-2008, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indianadrew

newman i have to agree with wolf. you do like to bame bush or those wascally wepublicans for anything from the war in iraq to a rainy day. those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. and FYI libertarians are not just dope smoking republicans.

I blame Bush for the war in Iraq because it was his fault. His choice. A pre-emptive strike against a country that was never a threat to us. We were never attacked by Iraq. Sixteen of the nineteen September 11 highjackers were from Saudi Arabia. If we wanted to attack a country then why didn't we attack, invade, and occupy Saudi Arabia for six years, or eternity? That would have made more sense!

What do Libertarians believe in? No taxes? No services? Everyman for himself? No government? How are they different than Bush/Cheney, Drew?

wolf213 · 06-23-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

Fellas,

No, I am no fan of the Dems, but true, they do have my vote. Why? Because there is no hope with the Republican party. They are owned by the oil companies and big insurance, pharmaceuticals, and so forth. Lobbyists. Multinational corporations.

Are you saying that the Dems aren't owned by Lobbyist? The Clintons are as corrupt as they come, and with Obama, the name Rezko should ring a bell. To say the Dems aren't owned by lobbist is Kool-aide drinking if I ever saw it. They are only owned by lobbist most other lefties agree with, PETA, Moveon, etc.

Quote:

Voting for McCain is voting for McSame. No end to the occupation of Iraq. My America doesn't believe in having an oil colony.

McCain was at one point in his career considering switching the Democratic party... so there is hope. Of the Republican nominations he's the one I liked the most, I have yet to see a solid example of how Bush's policies would continue under McCain. Oh and Newman this isn't just your America, its everyones. I take a big offense to your closed minded view points. However I agree with your premise that Iraq doesn't need to be America's oil whore... the future is in the development of renewable energy, but its a long process and it doesn't happen overnight.

Quote:

What's the price of gas today? $3.92 at my station. No justification for it. All because of oil speculation on Wall Street. This won't change if McCain gets in. And drilling isn't the answer. It's not a supply and demand issue.

This is by far the dumbest thing you have said. Drilling isn't the Answer??? this isn't a supply and demand issue??? Do you have any grasp on basic economics. Do you know what countries like China and India are doing the oil prices? If we do drill and increase the supply, prices will have to go down, and while its a short term solution, its one that must be considered if we are tired of $4 gas.

Quote:

The only ones who benefitted by Bush's war of choice in Iraq were the big oil companies, and those who have stock in oil, and oil speculators, and war profiteers like Halliburton. The American public is much worse off now, than we were 8 years ago. To keep voting Republican, rewarding them, would be the definition of insanity.

Oh, I would say there have been more who have benefited... like the countless number of Iraqi citizens who under Sadaam would've been killed...

Can we also have enough of this evil oil company crap??? Forbes recently published an article (of course Forbes might not be one of your reading materials because its a little to the right of the tub of lard blow hard Michael Moore) That said on average Oil Companies make 9.1 cents on every gallon. Compared to soft drink companies of almost 20 cents per every soft drink, who's markup is obsessive?

Some questions for you Newman.

What do you think we should do about Iran? Do you think of them as a threat? Should we bother defending Israel?

Do you support the war going on in Afghanistan, or should we not be their either?

Are you in favor of an all socialistic or even communistic version of America, where everyone contributes the the same pie, and every gets an equal amount of that pie, or should people be entitled to keep what they earn?

indianadrew · 06-23-2008, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman

What do Libertarians believe in? No taxes? No services? Everyman for himself? No government? How are they different than Bush/Cheney, Drew?

Libertarian Party | LP.org | The Party of Principle

not quite newman.
if you are really interested, you will find a wealth of information on this site. there are a few things that i think you may agree with. maybe you are a libertarian and dont even know it. think outside the box brother newman. legalize freedom.

BigRapidsJackass · 06-23-2008, 11:16 PM

Drew, while I'm not a big fan of the Libertarian Party (which given its small size is too easily co-opted by nutcase special interests like the anti-vaccination groups), I am definitely a "small l" libertarian.

And yes, libertarianism has the virtue of being based on ideals, not on whatever kind of coalition you can splice together every election for the sole purpose of maintaining or seizing political power.

TheIncredibleRox · 06-24-2008, 12:24 AM

Two short clips from two people who I consider some of the most brilliant to walk our Earth in the last couple centuries, who do a great job of eplaining why I consider myself a libertarian.

First, Sir Milton:

YouTube - Milton Friedman - Greed

And (a bit longer), Madame Rand:

YouTube - Ayn Rand Mike Wallace Interview 1959 part 2

Newman · 06-25-2008, 11:38 AM

FAQ | Libertarian Party | LP.org

As I was looking thru these frequently asked questions of the Libertarian Party, above, it strikes me that Libs want no regulation of business, trust big business not to be greedy, trust multinational corporations to care about the environment, not to gouge the public by going after excessive profits and so forth.

This doesn't work.

Human nature. Greed. Isn't that what we're experiencing now with this war for oil, with the oil companies making excessive profits, with the price of oil skyrocketing because of oil speculators on Wall Street, along with the falling dollar.

This is why libertarian philosophy doesn't work. You can't trust humans not to be greedy. The aggressive ones, like Cheney for example, want as much money and power as possible. These people need to be regulated or jailed.

Newman · 06-25-2008, 01:35 PM

[quote=wolf213;212383]Are you saying that the Dems aren't owned by Lobbyist? The Clintons are as corrupt as they come, and with Obama, the name Rezko should ring a bell. To say the Dems aren't owned by lobbist is Kool-aide drinking if I ever saw it. They are only owned by lobbist most other lefties agree with, PETA, Moveon, etc.

McCain was at one point in his career considering switching the Democratic party... so there is hope. Of the Republican nominations he's the one I liked the most, I have yet to see a solid example of how Bush's policies would continue under McCain. Oh and Newman this isn't just your America, its everyones. I take a big offense to your closed minded view points. However I agree with your premise that Iraq doesn't need to be America's oil whore... the future is in the development of renewable energy, but its a long process and it doesn't happen overnight.

Wolf, no offense, but you obviously don't follow the news. McCain = McSame. Same as Bush. What's the difference? He's trying to get the Evangelical vote if you recall his courting of Rev Hagge and that other whacko preacher. He would love Dobson's support. He's going after the conservative REpub base. Let's be honest here, Wolf.

WE've known each other a long time. You don't have to name call me like Dan Caplis would. We don't agree on all things. You can tolerate that, can't you?

Bob Schaeffer is owned by big oil. Cheney is big oil. The Repubs are owned by big oil. Don't we agree on that?

I agree with you, the Dems are gutless, Pelosi is an embarassment, and Obama is moving toward the center, to get elected. I'm not a fan of the Clintons. The more I learned about them and listened to them during this campaign, the less I liked them. Not a fan.

This is by far the dumbest thing you have said. Drilling isn't the Answer??? this isn't a supply and demand issue??? Do you have any grasp on basic economics. Do you know what countries like China and India are doing the oil prices? If we do drill and increase the supply, prices will have to go down, and while its a short term solution, its one that must be considered if we are tired of $4 gas.

I have a grasp. It's complicated. I hope you can see that Wolf. It's not a pure supply and demand issue. Americans are driving less. The corporate media is spinning it that India and China are driving more? Do you believe that, in those congested, impoverished countries? I don't. Sure they have more industry now, using slave labor to get Walmart it's cheap goods, but this is not enough to justify the huge spike in oil prices. It's all about oil speculation AND the falling US dollar. Supply and demand has little to do with it. It more has to do with Bush and his deregulation of the oil industry, the lack of regulation on Wall Street, buying on margin, that kind of crap.

Oh, I would say there have been more who have benefited... like the countless number of Iraqi citizens who under Sadaam would've been killed...

After 6 years of this war, do they have electricity yet, 24 hours a day, in Baghdad? Nope. Are they better off? How many people have fled Iraq because of the war? Have you thought of the refugee problem, the numbers that have fled? How many innocent people has our armed forces killed? We get no numbers. CBS no longer even has a war correspondent in Iraq! Last week more GIs were killed in Afghanistan than Iraq and none of the 3 major news corporations has a correspondent in Afghanistan. The media has let us down. America has war fatigue. What was the war all about? Scott McClellan said we were lied into the war. There was no threat. He should know. He was in the inner circle. Press Secretary.

Can we also have enough of this evil oil company crap??? Forbes recently published an article (of course Forbes might not be one of your reading materials because its a little to the right of the tub of lard blow hard Michael Moore) That said on average Oil Companies make 9.1 cents on every gallon. Compared to soft drink companies of almost 20 cents per every soft drink, who's markup is obsessive? I feel so sorry for the poor oil companies and their record profits <heavy sarcasm>. I feel sorry for the average American buying gas just to get to work. Food prices are skyrocketing. All prices are going up because of Bush's war. And we are none the more safer because of it.

Some questions for you Newman.

What do you think we should do about Iran? Do you think of them as a threat? Should we bother defending Israel?Let Israel defend itself. Sell them bombs and bombers. Let them do their own dirty work. What do YOU think, wolf?

Do you support the war going on in Afghanistan, or should we not be their either? What's the point of it? Spread democracy? Give me a break. Russia was driven out of there and they were a super power and a next door neighbor. What is the goal? Kill every terrorist? We have no achieveable goal. Is there any progress there? The news doesn't report. We don't know what's going on there. Is that where Osama bin laden is or is he in Pakistan. Why didn't Bush go after him, wolf? Doesn't that make you furious that he went to Iraq instead of going after bin laden?

Are you in favor of an all socialistic or even communistic version of America, where everyone contributes the the same pie, and every gets an equal amount of that pie, or should people be entitled to keep what they earn?

I'm a democratic socialist, wolf. The word socialism doesn't bother me. We drive on socialist streets. Who makes a profit? I deliver mail and make no profit. I do my job and then go home and enjoy my life, watch baseball, watch Keith Olbermann and the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. I believe we are all in this together. Conservatives believe it's every man for himself. I don't see life that way. We live in a community. We share water, electricity. Gas is a necessity. It's a monopoly.

Libertarians believe in trusting the free market. I don't see how that works. Did the free market wash the tomatoes before they came to market, or supply the migrant workers with portapotties - OR did that just cut in to their profits. I'm for regulation. I want clean food and clean water and clean air. Does that make me

a socialist!

wolf213 · 06-27-2008, 01:40 PM

[quote=Newman;212914]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf213

I'm a democratic socialist, wolf. The word socialism doesn't bother me. We drive on socialist streets. Who makes a profit? I deliver mail and make no profit. I do my job and then go home and enjoy my life, watch baseball, watch Keith Olbermann and the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. I believe we are all in this together. Conservatives believe it's every man for himself. I don't see life that way. We live in a community. We share water, electricity. Gas is a necessity. It's a monopoly.

Libertarians believe in trusting the free market. I don't see how that works. Did the free market wash the tomatoes before they came to market, or supply the migrant workers with portapotties - OR did that just cut in to their profits. I'm for regulation. I want clean food and clean water and clean air. Does that make me

a socialist!

There is no such thing as a "Democratic Socialist". The two terms are virtually opposite, which is why the "Social Democrats" in various European do not refer to themselves as "Democratic" in nature, simply because Democracy and Socialism don't mix.

Your job requires you to deliver mail to your "Customers" who are tax payers. If you have looked recently, you will have realized that your operating funds to operate the post office are subsidized by US tax dollars that are in addition to any monies received by the post office by postage. This means that you are feeding at the public trough just as much as somebody who is on welfare. Of course given your attitudes toward socialism you think that welfare is wonderful utopia that everyone should strive for.

Regaurding your thoughts about sharing various goods and services, such as water and electricity, please keep in mind that we do not drink out of the same cup, take a bath in the same bathtub, nor do (I hope) we share the same road and the same spot on that road at the same time. Last time I checked, my neighbor didn't pay for my last months utility bill either. Again if you will look at your history very closely, you will find that even in Russia under communism, china under communism and any other country that was govern by communism (read socialism) has failed miserably. Even China today is actually allowing their population to make their livings individually in a relatively closed economy. Why don't you try reading the national geographic magazine of April 2008 were they went into extreme detail on to how Chinese industrialism has created a middle income group of people who are the driving force behind China's recent climb to economic power. Oh, by the way this also explains more people in China are now driving their own cars and why gas and oil has become more scarce. This is also happening in India as well.

Regarding your comment on Libertarians believing in the free market as well as the free market being able to provide basic workers rights and consumer safeties, have you ever heard of OSHA, have you ever heard of Unions, have you ever heard of the FDA? All of these came about as a result of individuals banding together and airing their grievances in a public forum that allowed Society to alter its beliefs. I will bet you all of your "community" money that this would've never have happened in a society that dictated to its citizens, what they could eat, what they could sleep on, etc, etc.

Wanting clean air, clean food and water, doesn't make you a socialist, but it may make you completely unrealistic. The last time I checked, the United States just happened to have some of (not all of) the cleanest air, water, food, etc, in the World. Plus we even give YOU the freedom to move out of this country and go find someplace else, thats a lot cleaner, nicer, pays you all of the community money you want... see if you can find another country like that.

Newman · 06-29-2008, 10:05 AM

[quote=wolf213;213562][quote=Newman;212914]

There is no such thing as a "Democratic Socialist". The two terms are virtually opposite, which is why the "Social Democrats" in various European do not refer to themselves as "Democratic" in nature, simply because Democracy and Socialism don't mix.

Wolf, I like this dialog we're having. I think it reveals a lot. I'm under NO illusion that neither of us will change his mind. I think that's what got my buddy Roxpert in so much trouble, mentally. He thought you others would see the light, once he unveiled the cobwebs, and therefore be a progressive like him (and me). It doesn't work that way. People vote on emotion, not intellect. Even "smart" people like us here.

I'm in deep water here. Isn't Sweden Democratic Socialist? My Air America host Thom Hartmann (who has written many books) was in Denmark this week. Aren't they socialist? Don't people vote there?? Didn't France go from left to right this year? If you ever watched Sicko by Michael Moore you would see that other countries have better healthcare systems, including Canada. I know that's a sentence that can be easily attacked, because Michael Moore is a fat slob and is easily attacked by el Rushbo, another fat slob, and his dittoheads, but Moore says a lot of good things and puts out a lot of good movies, if only people would watch them with an open mind.

Your job requires you to deliver mail to your "Customers" who are tax payers. If you have looked recently, you will have realized that your operating funds to operate the post office are subsidized by US tax dollars that are in addition to any monies received by the post office by postage. This means that you are feeding at the public trough just as much as somebody who is on welfare. Of course given your attitudes toward socialism you think that welfare is wonderful utopia that everyone should strive for.

Wrong again, beef jerkey breath! You seem to have all these assumptions about Progressives. Were they put there by Hannity? Glenn Beck? Rush? Michael Savage? Mike Rosen? Dan Caplis? Peter Boyles? The list of righty radio talkers never ends. They own the airwaves and have hypnotized America with their far right wing propaganda.

I get paid for doing my job. Isn't that how it should be? If I don't do my job I get in trouble. I don't want to be yelled at by my customers or my boss or my peers. I just want to do a good job and then go home and enjoy life. Is that any different than a fireman or a cop or a mechanic or a truck driver? What profit does a cop make? How is he a capitalist? What job do YOU have, Wolf? CEOs make profit. Workers get paid a salary, get paid a wage.

Welfare. I think people should work for a living. But where are the jobs? Outsourced to India. Isn't that what Bush did in his two terms? And didn't it start with Clinton, and NAFTA? Why can't the govt create jobs like they did under FDR? The Repub refrain is to trust corporations to lift us out of this hole the economy is headed in. Trust the free market? Why? They only care about profit. They don't want regulation. It costs money to clean the tomatoes. That cuts into a CEOs profits. Why trust multinational corporations?

Welfare. But what is the Republican solution to welfare? Shoot the poor? Put them in ovens? Let them starve? What would Jesus do?

Regaurding your thoughts about sharing various goods and services, such as water and electricity, please keep in mind that we do not drink out of the same cup, take a bath in the same bathtub, nor do (I hope) we share the same road and the same spot on that road at the same time. Last time I checked, my neighbor didn't pay for my last months utility bill either. Again if you will look at your history very closely, you will find that even in Russia under communism, china under communism and any other country that was govern by communism (read socialism) has failed miserably. Even China today is actually allowing their population to make their livings individually in a relatively closed economy. Why don't you try reading the national geographic magazine of April 2008 were they went into extreme detail on to how Chinese industrialism has created a middle income group of people who are the driving force behind China's recent climb to economic power. Oh, by the way this also explains more people in China are now driving their own cars and why gas and oil has become more scarce. This is also happening in India as well.

You get your news from National Geographic mag? Interesting. My NPR sources tell me that Communist Chinese laborers are making 45 cents an hour, living in crowded substandard housing, etc. I would call that slave wages. So when they sell their lead painted cheap toys to Walmart and YOU buy them, you are supporting slavery in a sense.

Have you noticed that the corporate American media never calls it "Communist" China anymore. It's simply China. More palatable that way.

The Commies have learned from the Americans. The way to make more profits is to have cheap labor.

Don't confuse communism with democratic socialism. Not the same. Sweden is not Communist China.

Regarding your comment on Libertarians believing in the free market as well as the free market being able to provide basic workers rights and consumer safeties, have you ever heard of OSHA, have you ever heard of Unions, have you ever heard of the FDA? All of these came about as a result of individuals banding together and airing their grievances in a public forum that allowed Society to alter its beliefs. I will bet you all of your "community" money that this would've never have happened in a society that dictated to its citizens, what they could eat, what they could sleep on, etc, etc.

Wolf, you're making MY point. Why do we have Unions? Because without them, me as a letter carrier for example, would be making $10/hour, instead of the $24/hour that I make, which is a middle class wage, and provides a middle class lifestyle. The Republicans want to crush unions, again because they love those low wages, which is why Bush and McCain did nothing about illegal immigration.

OSHA, FDA, all of these came about because you can't trust the free market. It needs to be regulated. The stock market needs to be regulated. That's where this dialog began, remember? The price of oil has gone up, not because of supply and demand, but because of oil speculators on Wall Street! Bush has de-regulated that.

Socialism is not going to tell every American that they can only buy a black Model T. No choices. Where are you getting this from? In Sweden do they only have one type of car? ONe type of sofa? One bed?

If you watched Sicko...some things don't need competition. Electricity. Roads? Healthcare? Hey, if you want to pay more for healthcare go ahead. You could be wealthy. It gets down to role of govt. What is govt's role? To provide for it's citizens or to stay out of the way and let a few people get really rich at the expense of the citizenry? Sicko. Healthcare for a profit. They make something like 17% profit in that industry compared to a 3% profit in the grocery industry. Why is that wolf?

Wanting clean air, clean food and water, doesn't make you a socialist, but it may make you completely unrealistic.

Wow. That sentence leaps out at me and slaps me in the face. Americans shouldn't expect clean water and clean air? Again this is the far right and their drumbeat. How is it different than state run radio in the USSR back in the day, Pravda, Tass, if you know those Russian names from history. Rush Limbaugh has made "environmentalist" into a bad name. If you want clean air and clean water you are EVIL...or unrealistic. Rush is the master of manipulation, propaganda. We deserve clean air. Period.

I heard that Communist China (no polllution controls there) is going to shut down it's factories for 3 weeks before the Olympics so the marathon runners won't have to wear masks or collapse at mile number 22!

The last time I checked, the United States just happened to have some of (not all of) the cleanest air, water, food, etc, in the World. Plus we even give YOU the freedom to move out of this country and go find someplace else, thats a lot cleaner, nicer, pays you all of the community money you want... see if you can find another country like that.

During Vietnam, the Right wing chant was "America, love it or leave it." I never bought that mind set as a college student back in 1969. For me it has always been "America - love it and fix it." Make it better. Just like when we talk here, about our Rockies, how we could fix it, what to do to make our team better, make them win, make them respectable! We don't leave here and go to the Yankees board or the Bosox board because it's better over there. We may learn things from them. Use what we learn to make our situation better here in Colorado. Likewise why not use things we like in Canada or Denmark and apply them to America??

Newman · 07-01-2008, 06:28 PM

Stop Oil Speculators. Send Congress An S.O.S.

Check out this site. Click on the above. The price of gas is $3.94/gal at my station, just kicked up two more cents for the patriotic holiday, Independence Day.

We may have gotten our independence from England in 1776. When do we attain our freedom from multinational corporations like Exxon Mobil who seem to be more powerful than world governments?

TheIncredibleRox · 07-02-2008, 04:12 PM

A) You know who "oil speculators" are? The same people who own Exxon Mobil. You. Wolf. My parents. My state-sponsored university. The mailworker's pension fund. The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker. You don't seem to grasp this.

B) What does it matter what positions they buy? What this author is referring to as 'gaming the market' is simply what any investor is doing whether trading stocks, bonds, currencies, or commodities; managing risk, making educated bets on the direction of the market, and hedging. What about that is unethical? And how is it ethical that we should somehow artificially limit those who are smarter, comparatively, than the rest of the market?

C) Speculation, in and of itself, is not the reason why your gas is expensive: the reason the speculation is going in the direction it is, is because there is a perception that there exists an enormous gap between what is being demanded and what is being supplied. We have enormous oil resevouirs in this country that we haven't tapped. Tapping them would bring down both our domestic price of oil and assuage the extreme speculation.

Do you understand anything about economics, Newman?

Newman · 07-03-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheIncredibleRox

A) You know who "oil speculators" are? The same people who own Exxon Mobil. You. Wolf. My parents. My state-sponsored university. The mailworker's pension fund. The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker. You don't seem to grasp this.

I heard that Exxon Mobil was buying up it's own stock with their record profits. IR, who do you think owns more Exxon stock, me, you, or the CEO of Exxon?

I'm not a factor on the oil speculation Wall Street scene. The movers and shakers are, the ones buying on margin, playing the wall street game, the day traders. I'm just a gnat on the elephant's ass.

B) What does it matter what positions they buy? What this author is referring to as 'gaming the market' is simply what any investor is doing whether trading stocks, bonds, currencies, or commodities; managing risk, making educated bets on the direction of the market, and hedging. What about that is unethical? And how is it ethical that we should somehow artificially limit those who are smarter, comparatively, than the rest of the market?

That's like saying it's ok for smart people to rip off dumb, poor people, and in fact that you favor that kind of activity! Ethics? Is the mortgage crisis ethical? All the foreclosures? Once again, IR, you line up with the wealthy white Republicans against everyday middle class and poor people. Your choice. Where's your heart? We know your brain is all about making money. The ends justifies the means. Who said that? Machiavelli? It sounds like you support him!

C) Speculation, in and of itself, is not the reason why your gas is expensive: the reason the speculation is going in the direction it is, is because there is a perception that there exists an enormous gap between what is being demanded and what is being supplied. We have enormous oil resevouirs in this country that we haven't tapped. Tapping them would bring down both our domestic price of oil and assuage the extreme speculation.

Drilling. That's the Republican answer. As if drilling on the coast of America or in Anwar (time now to mention the evil Environmentalists) would make a dent in this crisis. How much oil do we get from the middle east anyway? That would be worth a google.

I understand economics. Incredible, do you understand anything about human nature? Greed? Have you studied history? The Great Depression? The stock market crash? Could we have won the Vietnam War? Was that a good war? Was the war in Iraq a good one? And what is winning? Do you ever ask yourselves those questions while you're balancing your checkbook?

Do you understand anything about economics, Newman?

Newman · 07-03-2008, 04:15 PM

Online NewsHour: Facing America's Dependence on Foreign Energy -- February 1, 2006

This is what I got from my google. We get 13% of our oil from the Middle East. When Bush started his war in Iraq what was the price per barrel? What is it now? $146/barrel. That is NOT a 13% increase.

The Republican answer would be that India and China now need so much more oil. I don't buy that BS. Republican propaganda.

Americans are driving less. I'm on a "staycation" myself. Who can afford to go anywhere? From March 2003 to July 2008, the factories in China and India have bought so much oil that prices need to sky rocket? Supply and demand? Doesn't pass the smell test. Back in 2003 everything I bought was made in China. No difference today.

Newman · 07-03-2008, 04:19 PM

price per barrel of oil in 2003 when Iraq war started - Yahoo! Search Results

Price of a barrel of oil when Bush's war in Iraq started was $70/barrel. Now it's twice that much. Has very little to do with supply and demand.

TheIncredibleRox · 07-03-2008, 04:33 PM

LOL!

So now the laws of supply and demand are "Republican Propaganda" and suddenly it's not oil speculators who drove the market, like it was yesterday (seems you gave up on that one), it's now George Bush again.

Your little blurb about buying things from China shows you have not the slightest clue how the oil market, or any commdoities market, or economics in general, works.

And your populist rhetoric blurb, always bringing up race, is downright Communistic; that anyone who is smarter or more efficient in any way than the rest of an industry is "ripping off poor people." So Roxpert, who manages a media hedge fund.... when his fund beats the market, he should return all those profits, because he must have ripped off some poor people, huh? We should end capitalism in general. All profits shared.

06-25-2008, 01:35 PM	#967 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	A message for wolf [quote=wolf213;212383]Are you saying that the Dems aren't owned by Lobbyist? The Clintons are as corrupt as they come, and with Obama, the name Rezko should ring a bell. To say the Dems aren't owned by lobbist is Kool-aide drinking if I ever saw it. They are only owned by lobbist most other lefties agree with, PETA, Moveon, etc. McCain was at one point in his career considering switching the Democratic party... so there is hope. Of the Republican nominations he's the one I liked the most, I have yet to see a solid example of how Bush's policies would continue under McCain. Oh and Newman this isn't just your America, its everyones. I take a big offense to your closed minded view points. However I agree with your premise that Iraq doesn't need to be America's oil whore... the future is in the development of renewable energy, but its a long process and it doesn't happen overnight. Wolf, no offense, but you obviously don't follow the news. McCain = McSame. Same as Bush. What's the difference? He's trying to get the Evangelical vote if you recall his courting of Rev Hagge and that other whacko preacher. He would love Dobson's support. He's going after the conservative REpub base. Let's be honest here, Wolf. WE've known each other a long time. You don't have to name call me like Dan Caplis would. We don't agree on all things. You can tolerate that, can't you? Bob Schaeffer is owned by big oil. Cheney is big oil. The Repubs are owned by big oil. Don't we agree on that? I agree with you, the Dems are gutless, Pelosi is an embarassment, and Obama is moving toward the center, to get elected. I'm not a fan of the Clintons. The more I learned about them and listened to them during this campaign, the less I liked them. Not a fan. This is by far the dumbest thing you have said. Drilling isn't the Answer??? this isn't a supply and demand issue??? Do you have any grasp on basic economics. Do you know what countries like China and India are doing the oil prices? If we do drill and increase the supply, prices will have to go down, and while its a short term solution, its one that must be considered if we are tired of $4 gas. I have a grasp. It's complicated. I hope you can see that Wolf. It's not a pure supply and demand issue. Americans are driving less. The corporate media is spinning it that India and China are driving more? Do you believe that, in those congested, impoverished countries? I don't. Sure they have more industry now, using slave labor to get Walmart it's cheap goods, but this is not enough to justify the huge spike in oil prices. It's all about oil speculation AND the falling US dollar. Supply and demand has little to do with it. It more has to do with Bush and his deregulation of the oil industry, the lack of regulation on Wall Street, buying on margin, that kind of crap. Oh, I would say there have been more who have benefited... like the countless number of Iraqi citizens who under Sadaam would've been killed... After 6 years of this war, do they have electricity yet, 24 hours a day, in Baghdad? Nope. Are they better off? How many people have fled Iraq because of the war? Have you thought of the refugee problem, the numbers that have fled? How many innocent people has our armed forces killed? We get no numbers. CBS no longer even has a war correspondent in Iraq! Last week more GIs were killed in Afghanistan than Iraq and none of the 3 major news corporations has a correspondent in Afghanistan. The media has let us down. America has war fatigue. What was the war all about? Scott McClellan said we were lied into the war. There was no threat. He should know. He was in the inner circle. Press Secretary. Can we also have enough of this evil oil company crap??? Forbes recently published an article (of course Forbes might not be one of your reading materials because its a little to the right of the tub of lard blow hard Michael Moore) That said on average Oil Companies make 9.1 cents on every gallon. Compared to soft drink companies of almost 20 cents per every soft drink, who's markup is obsessive? I feel so sorry for the poor oil companies and their record profits <heavy sarcasm>. I feel sorry for the average American buying gas just to get to work. Food prices are skyrocketing. All prices are going up because of Bush's war. And we are none the more safer because of it. Some questions for you Newman. What do you think we should do about Iran? Do you think of them as a threat? Should we bother defending Israel?Let Israel defend itself. Sell them bombs and bombers. Let them do their own dirty work. What do YOU think, wolf? Do you support the war going on in Afghanistan, or should we not be their either? What's the point of it? Spread democracy? Give me a break. Russia was driven out of there and they were a super power and a next door neighbor. What is the goal? Kill every terrorist? We have no achieveable goal. Is there any progress there? The news doesn't report. We don't know what's going on there. Is that where Osama bin laden is or is he in Pakistan. Why didn't Bush go after him, wolf? Doesn't that make you furious that he went to Iraq instead of going after bin laden? Are you in favor of an all socialistic or even communistic version of America, where everyone contributes the the same pie, and every gets an equal amount of that pie, or should people be entitled to keep what they earn? I'm a democratic socialist, wolf. The word socialism doesn't bother me. We drive on socialist streets. Who makes a profit? I deliver mail and make no profit. I do my job and then go home and enjoy my life, watch baseball, watch Keith Olbermann and the Daily Show and the Colbert Report. I believe we are all in this together. Conservatives believe it's every man for himself. I don't see life that way. We live in a community. We share water, electricity. Gas is a necessity. It's a monopoly. Libertarians believe in trusting the free market. I don't see how that works. Did the free market wash the tomatoes before they came to market, or supply the migrant workers with portapotties - OR did that just cut in to their profits. I'm for regulation. I want clean food and clean water and clean air. Does that make me a socialist!

06-29-2008, 10:05 AM	#969 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	[quote=wolf213;213562][quote=Newman;212914] There is no such thing as a "Democratic Socialist". The two terms are virtually opposite, which is why the "Social Democrats" in various European do not refer to themselves as "Democratic" in nature, simply because Democracy and Socialism don't mix. Wolf, I like this dialog we're having. I think it reveals a lot. I'm under NO illusion that neither of us will change his mind. I think that's what got my buddy Roxpert in so much trouble, mentally. He thought you others would see the light, once he unveiled the cobwebs, and therefore be a progressive like him (and me). It doesn't work that way. People vote on emotion, not intellect. Even "smart" people like us here. I'm in deep water here. Isn't Sweden Democratic Socialist? My Air America host Thom Hartmann (who has written many books) was in Denmark this week. Aren't they socialist? Don't people vote there?? Didn't France go from left to right this year? If you ever watched Sicko by Michael Moore you would see that other countries have better healthcare systems, including Canada. I know that's a sentence that can be easily attacked, because Michael Moore is a fat slob and is easily attacked by el Rushbo, another fat slob, and his dittoheads, but Moore says a lot of good things and puts out a lot of good movies, if only people would watch them with an open mind. Your job requires you to deliver mail to your "Customers" who are tax payers. If you have looked recently, you will have realized that your operating funds to operate the post office are subsidized by US tax dollars that are in addition to any monies received by the post office by postage. This means that you are feeding at the public trough just as much as somebody who is on welfare. Of course given your attitudes toward socialism you think that welfare is wonderful utopia that everyone should strive for. Wrong again, beef jerkey breath! You seem to have all these assumptions about Progressives. Were they put there by Hannity? Glenn Beck? Rush? Michael Savage? Mike Rosen? Dan Caplis? Peter Boyles? The list of righty radio talkers never ends. They own the airwaves and have hypnotized America with their far right wing propaganda. I get paid for doing my job. Isn't that how it should be? If I don't do my job I get in trouble. I don't want to be yelled at by my customers or my boss or my peers. I just want to do a good job and then go home and enjoy life. Is that any different than a fireman or a cop or a mechanic or a truck driver? What profit does a cop make? How is he a capitalist? What job do YOU have, Wolf? CEOs make profit. Workers get paid a salary, get paid a wage. Welfare. I think people should work for a living. But where are the jobs? Outsourced to India. Isn't that what Bush did in his two terms? And didn't it start with Clinton, and NAFTA? Why can't the govt create jobs like they did under FDR? The Repub refrain is to trust corporations to lift us out of this hole the economy is headed in. Trust the free market? Why? They only care about profit. They don't want regulation. It costs money to clean the tomatoes. That cuts into a CEOs profits. Why trust multinational corporations? Welfare. But what is the Republican solution to welfare? Shoot the poor? Put them in ovens? Let them starve? What would Jesus do? Regaurding your thoughts about sharing various goods and services, such as water and electricity, please keep in mind that we do not drink out of the same cup, take a bath in the same bathtub, nor do (I hope) we share the same road and the same spot on that road at the same time. Last time I checked, my neighbor didn't pay for my last months utility bill either. Again if you will look at your history very closely, you will find that even in Russia under communism, china under communism and any other country that was govern by communism (read socialism) has failed miserably. Even China today is actually allowing their population to make their livings individually in a relatively closed economy. Why don't you try reading the national geographic magazine of April 2008 were they went into extreme detail on to how Chinese industrialism has created a middle income group of people who are the driving force behind China's recent climb to economic power. Oh, by the way this also explains more people in China are now driving their own cars and why gas and oil has become more scarce. This is also happening in India as well. You get your news from National Geographic mag? Interesting. My NPR sources tell me that Communist Chinese laborers are making 45 cents an hour, living in crowded substandard housing, etc. I would call that slave wages. So when they sell their lead painted cheap toys to Walmart and YOU buy them, you are supporting slavery in a sense. Have you noticed that the corporate American media never calls it "Communist" China anymore. It's simply China. More palatable that way. The Commies have learned from the Americans. The way to make more profits is to have cheap labor. Don't confuse communism with democratic socialism. Not the same. Sweden is not Communist China. Regarding your comment on Libertarians believing in the free market as well as the free market being able to provide basic workers rights and consumer safeties, have you ever heard of OSHA, have you ever heard of Unions, have you ever heard of the FDA? All of these came about as a result of individuals banding together and airing their grievances in a public forum that allowed Society to alter its beliefs. I will bet you all of your "community" money that this would've never have happened in a society that dictated to its citizens, what they could eat, what they could sleep on, etc, etc. Wolf, you're making MY point. Why do we have Unions? Because without them, me as a letter carrier for example, would be making $10/hour, instead of the $24/hour that I make, which is a middle class wage, and provides a middle class lifestyle. The Republicans want to crush unions, again because they love those low wages, which is why Bush and McCain did nothing about illegal immigration. OSHA, FDA, all of these came about because you can't trust the free market. It needs to be regulated. The stock market needs to be regulated. That's where this dialog began, remember? The price of oil has gone up, not because of supply and demand, but because of oil speculators on Wall Street! Bush has de-regulated that. Socialism is not going to tell every American that they can only buy a black Model T. No choices. Where are you getting this from? In Sweden do they only have one type of car? ONe type of sofa? One bed? If you watched Sicko...some things don't need competition. Electricity. Roads? Healthcare? Hey, if you want to pay more for healthcare go ahead. You could be wealthy. It gets down to role of govt. What is govt's role? To provide for it's citizens or to stay out of the way and let a few people get really rich at the expense of the citizenry? Sicko. Healthcare for a profit. They make something like 17% profit in that industry compared to a 3% profit in the grocery industry. Why is that wolf? Wanting clean air, clean food and water, doesn't make you a socialist, but it may make you completely unrealistic. Wow. That sentence leaps out at me and slaps me in the face. Americans shouldn't expect clean water and clean air? Again this is the far right and their drumbeat. How is it different than state run radio in the USSR back in the day, Pravda, Tass, if you know those Russian names from history. Rush Limbaugh has made "environmentalist" into a bad name. If you want clean air and clean water you are EVIL...or unrealistic. Rush is the master of manipulation, propaganda. We deserve clean air. Period. I heard that Communist China (no polllution controls there) is going to shut down it's factories for 3 weeks before the Olympics so the marathon runners won't have to wear masks or collapse at mile number 22! The last time I checked, the United States just happened to have some of (not all of) the cleanest air, water, food, etc, in the World. Plus we even give YOU the freedom to move out of this country and go find someplace else, thats a lot cleaner, nicer, pays you all of the community money you want... see if you can find another country like that. During Vietnam, the Right wing chant was "America, love it or leave it." I never bought that mind set as a college student back in 1969. For me it has always been "America - love it and fix it." Make it better. Just like when we talk here, about our Rockies, how we could fix it, what to do to make our team better, make them win, make them respectable! We don't leave here and go to the Yankees board or the Bosox board because it's better over there. We may learn things from them. Use what we learn to make our situation better here in Colorado. Likewise why not use things we like in Canada or Denmark and apply them to America?? Last edited by Newman; 06-29-2008 at 10:42 AM.

07-01-2008, 06:28 PM	#970 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	Stop Oil Speculation site Stop Oil Speculators. Send Congress An S.O.S. Check out this site. Click on the above. The price of gas is $3.94/gal at my station, just kicked up two more cents for the patriotic holiday, Independence Day. We may have gotten our independence from England in 1776. When do we attain our freedom from multinational corporations like Exxon Mobil who seem to be more powerful than world governments?

06-23-2008, 11:16 PM	#964 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,123	Drew, while I'm not a big fan of the Libertarian Party (which given its small size is too easily co-opted by nutcase special interests like the anti-vaccination groups), I am definitely a "small l" libertarian. And yes, libertarianism has the virtue of being based on ideals, not on whatever kind of coalition you can splice together every election for the sole purpose of maintaining or seizing political power.

06-25-2008, 11:38 AM	#966 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	FAQ \| Libertarian Party \| LP.org As I was looking thru these frequently asked questions of the Libertarian Party, above, it strikes me that Libs want no regulation of business, trust big business not to be greedy, trust multinational corporations to care about the environment, not to gouge the public by going after excessive profits and so forth. This doesn't work. Human nature. Greed. Isn't that what we're experiencing now with this war for oil, with the oil companies making excessive profits, with the price of oil skyrocketing because of oil speculators on Wall Street, along with the falling dollar. This is why libertarian philosophy doesn't work. You can't trust humans not to be greedy. The aggressive ones, like Cheney for example, want as much money and power as possible. These people need to be regulated or jailed.

07-02-2008, 04:12 PM	#971 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 275	A) You know who "oil speculators" are? The same people who own Exxon Mobil. You. Wolf. My parents. My state-sponsored university. The mailworker's pension fund. The butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker. You don't seem to grasp this. B) What does it matter what positions they buy? What this author is referring to as 'gaming the market' is simply what any investor is doing whether trading stocks, bonds, currencies, or commodities; managing risk, making educated bets on the direction of the market, and hedging. What about that is unethical? And how is it ethical that we should somehow artificially limit those who are smarter, comparatively, than the rest of the market? C) Speculation, in and of itself, is not the reason why your gas is expensive: the reason the speculation is going in the direction it is, is because there is a perception that there exists an enormous gap between what is being demanded and what is being supplied. We have enormous oil resevouirs in this country that we haven't tapped. Tapping them would bring down both our domestic price of oil and assuage the extreme speculation. Do you understand anything about economics, Newman?

07-03-2008, 04:15 PM	#973 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	Online NewsHour: Facing America's Dependence on Foreign Energy -- February 1, 2006 This is what I got from my google. We get 13% of our oil from the Middle East. When Bush started his war in Iraq what was the price per barrel? What is it now? $146/barrel. That is NOT a 13% increase. The Republican answer would be that India and China now need so much more oil. I don't buy that BS. Republican propaganda. Americans are driving less. I'm on a "staycation" myself. Who can afford to go anywhere? From March 2003 to July 2008, the factories in China and India have bought so much oil that prices need to sky rocket? Supply and demand? Doesn't pass the smell test. Back in 2003 everything I bought was made in China. No difference today.

07-03-2008, 04:19 PM	#974 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 526	price per barrel of oil in 2003 when Iraq war started - Yahoo! Search Results Price of a barrel of oil when Bush's war in Iraq started was $70/barrel. Now it's twice that much. Has very little to do with supply and demand.

07-03-2008, 04:33 PM	#975 (permalink)
TheIncredibleRox Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 275	LOL! So now the laws of supply and demand are "Republican Propaganda" and suddenly it's not oil speculators who drove the market, like it was yesterday (seems you gave up on that one), it's now George Bush again. Your little blurb about buying things from China shows you have not the slightest clue how the oil market, or any commdoities market, or economics in general, works. And your populist rhetoric blurb, always bringing up race, is downright Communistic; that anyone who is smarter or more efficient in any way than the rest of an industry is "ripping off poor people." So Roxpert, who manages a media hedge fund.... when his fund beats the market, he should return all those profits, because he must have ripped off some poor people, huh? We should end capitalism in general. All profits shared.