random off-topic thread

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by indianadrew

JC i would say extremists on both ends of the spectrum use that tactic.

Agreed. To be sure, liberals don't have a monopoly on hate, hyperbole or intellectual dishonesty.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

Agreed. To be sure, liberals don't have a monopoly on hate, hyperbole or intellectual dishonesty.

To be sure, your view of liberals that was evidenced by the YouTube video you shared of Bill Maher's ex-writer is warped. What he and you are referring to are the most strident extremists, radicals that mainstream liberals such as me don't relate to, such as Ward Churchill.

For you to paint the liberal brush that broadly is, in itself, intolerant. I know that extremists on both ends of the spectrum are hateful. You seem to be on the right-end. I am most certainly NOT on the left-end. On the political spectrum, I'm probably in the 75th percentile toward the extreme left, i.e. mainstream. Yet you would like to characterize all liberals like me as hateful based on stuff you write and things you share, such as that disgusting rant on YouTube.

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

To be sure, your view of liberals that was evidenced by the YouTube video you shared of Bill Maher's ex-writer is warped. What he and you are referring to are the most strident extremists, radicals that mainstream liberals such as me don't relate to, such as Ward Churchill.

For you to paint the liberal brush that broadly is, in itself, intolerant. I know that extremists on both ends of the spectrum are hateful. You seem to be on the right-end. I am most certainly NOT on the left-end. On the political spectrum, I'm probably in the 75th percentile toward the extreme left, i.e. mainstream. Yet you would like to characterize all liberals like me as hateful based on stuff you write and things you share, such as that disgusting rant on YouTube.

You know, it always amuses me when you respond with such anger and false indignation whenever someone puts the very same labels on you that you are so comfortable slapping on everyone else.

I don't seek to characterize liberals "like you" as hateful. That's a generalization. I characterize some of the things that come out of your mouth as hateful. That's an observation. There's a difference.

Liberal brush? Roxpert, I just picked up the same brush that you use to paint/slander conservatives (hell, even moderates), so don't lecture me about tolerance.

Someone once said, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

[Heltonfan]

Isn't Armenian supposed to be one of the most difficult languages to learn?

It's supposed to be, yes. And it's certainly a bit tough at first, what with the different alphabet and intimidating sound system (they've got 8 consonant sounds that we don't have in English), but once you get the basics down, it all comes pretty quickly, because it's very regular. Of course, I say this as someone for whom Armenian grammar presented no new challenges (it's fairly complex, but there's nothing in it that isn't also found in either Finnish or Spanish); for someone without a strong language background, it would probably be much harder.

General impressions of Armenia? Alright...

For starters, it feels (and is) very backward in many ways. Mostly economic stuff, of course, although there are some social things too. Gender roles here are still very traditional. It's virtually unheard of for women to take the initiative in romantic relationships. Women are expected to be beautiful whenever they walk out the door, even if they're just going to the shop around the corner for a loaf of bread (this isn't just a gender thing, though; people here generally dress more formally than in the States). And although smoking is sickeningly popular here, it's considered very un-ladylike; I'd guess that something like 5% of women smoke, compared to maybe 75% of men.

The religious aspect is interesting, too. Armenians are very proud of the fact that their nation was the first to officially adopt Christianity. And Armenian tourism mostly consists of visiting one thousand-year-old monastery after another (which is more interesting than it sounds, but still). Given all that, and given that it's a poor country, it's no surprise that, statistically, this is a very religious nation - something like 98% of the population belongs to the Armenian Apostolic Church. But you'll note that I said "statistically." Because, while virtually everyone here believes in God, they do so in a simple "Yes, I believe, but mostly because I've been raised to and I can't really imagine things otherwise" kind of way. There's no need for people here to shove their religion down other people's throats (because, again, 98% of the population is in agreement), and when I've told people that I'm a non-believer, their reaction has uniformly been much closer to "huh, that's odd" than to "you know you're going to hell, right?" So religion here is not an oppressive force like it is in the States.

But at the same time, because Christianity is more or less taken for granted, there are issues that aren't receiving as much thought as they probably should. One of my most bizarre experiences here came at a linguistics conference at YSU. I struck up a conversation with a nice young lady (who was appointed to be my translator in case I needed help understanding presentations made in Armenian, which I thankfully did not). We chatted about language matters for about an hour; she was obviously very bright, and very analytical. And then, I don't remember how, our conversation began to drift toward the sciences, and she made some comment about how absurd it was to think that humans and apes are related. I didn't press the matter (she was cute), but it stuck in my mind. And I suspect that it's fairly representative of the attitude of Armenians as a group.

And economically... it's just a very poor country, and it's impossible to go through a day without being repeatedly reminded of that fact. I've been teaching English here for five months now; in that time, I've had exactly one student bring a laptop to class, and that one student also happens to have a Ph.D. While I was in Helsinki, I wanted to find a souvenir/belated Christmas present for one of my co-workers. I thought to myself, "maybe a CD would be nice," only to realize a few seconds later that she doesn't own a CD player. Things like this pop up constantly, and that's in addition to the more glaring signs of poverty (dirty streets, old worn-down buildings, countless hunchbacked old ladies, the fact that there are only a few hours each day when the running water in my apartment is enough to allow me to take a shower).

It's not just economic poverty, either; it's poverty of knowledge. English is becoming more and more crucial for business here, and yet the quality of English instruction is still very poor. I was hired despite having absolutely no work experience or teaching-related education. My only qualifications were that a) I was a native speaker and b) I appeared, based on a 20-minute interview, not to be an idiot. And this selection process, as pathetic as it may seem, was completely rational. Because, with the exception of the faculty at the American University, I know of no other native speakers teaching English in Yerevan. When I asked one of my Armenian teachers about this, she said that there was only one native speaker on the faculty at YSU (Yerevan State University), and that he was soon going to leave. If that's the case at the best university in the country, it stands to reason that, for private learning centers like the place I’m working at, native speakers are even harder to find.

And, not to toot my own horn, but the difference between a native and a non-native is just huge. The other day, I had to clean up a report written by a few other teachers, in which I discovered, among other things, that certain students had "an analytical cast of mind" and that they had "done a tangible progress" which was reflected by the "gradual and steady test results". This isn't a knock on the teachers; English is an extremely difficult language. It's virtually impossible to achieve fluency without spending a lot of time in an English-speaking environment, and they haven't had that. The typical English teacher in Armenia is a woman in her mid-20s whose relative expertise comes as a result of having been one of the lucky few who, at some point during her schooling, had the opportunity to come to the States for a year, either on an exchange program or a fellowship.

So that’s the bad stuff. The good stuff… well, it’s very real, but it’s much harder to describe. I guess, in general, the most remarkable thing about this place is the Armenian people themselves. They are the friendliest, most accommodating, most helpful people I have ever met, despite the fact that, as previously mentioned, their own quality of life is, by our standards, terrible. Or, perhaps, because of that. Whatever the reason, though, there is a sense of community here unlike anything I’ve seen anywhere else. Strangers on the street are addressed as akhper (“brother”) or kuyrikjan (“little sister dear”), a level of intimacy that I find alternately bewildering and charming (I remember being rather shocked one time when I was sharing a cab with my boss, and the taxi driver addressed her as kuyrikjan). And it’s not just a linguistic happenstance. Armenian identity (forged primarily by shared trauma, most notably the genocide) is a very powerful thing. And this connectedness, this positive social energy, is felt by everyone, even non-social, non-Armenian people like myself.

And there are definite signs of progress on the “developing country” front. Right now, Yerevan is being subjected to a massive construction project. It’s been a colossal nuisance, with major streets being closed for months at a time, but we’re starting to see some results, and it’s quite promising.

[Roxpert]

I don't seek to characterize liberals "like you" as hateful. That's a generalization. I characterize some of the things that come out of your mouth as hateful. That's an observation. There's a difference.

I hate the brand of reactionary right-wing thought that you promote. I hate what the extreme right-wing has done to political governance in the USA. Almost all of we liberals hate Bush and Cheney's willful malfeasance of our country's foreign and domestic policies. That's different than being hateful toward individuals, a behavior you know very well.

I know, I know. You don't like Bush either as you've written. He's probably too liberal for your taste.

By the way, Liberals in general are the most loving and tolerant of beings on this planet. They believe in "live and let live", and don't hate various groups of nations, cultures, subcultures, races, or those different from themselves the way bigoted righties do. Not that any of the righties on this board are bigoted, but you won't find such bigotry among liberals and progressives. You WILL find that on the "KKK-wing" of the GOP and right-wing. Example: Not a single liberal I've ever met is anti-semetic. Plenty of rightwingers I've come across are indeed anti-semites. Even though I'm a non-religious Jew, my "antenna" is in the air and can easily detect Jew-haters from a distance, JC. Not saying anyone here is one of them....

Liberal brush? Roxpert, I just picked up the same brush that you use to paint/slander conservatives (hell, even moderates), so don't lecture me about tolerance.

Someone once said, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Funny you'd say "moderates". You're so clueless.....my thoughts are those of a moderate/liberal. I benefit from the free market, and have argued against unnecessary governmental regulations. Fact is, JC, you are the "Bill O'Reilly" of Fanhome, full of bullying snark, a rightwing blowhard, and rarely accurate or right. I'm sure you think I hate America, just as you think I hate and root against the Rockies. That's why I have little respect or care for what you have to say. You are as wrongheaded as any wingnut I've ever encountered. Simple as that.

[indianadrew]

wow....roxpert

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

I hate the brand of reactionary right-wing thought that you promote. I hate what the extreme right-wing has done to political governance in the USA. Almost all of we liberals hate Bush and Cheney's willful malfeasance of our country's foreign and domestic policies. That's different than being hateful toward individuals, a behavior you know very well.

I know, I know. You don't like Bush either as you've written. He's probably too liberal for your taste.

By the way, Liberals in general are the most loving and tolerant of beings on this planet. They believe in "live and let live", and don't hate various groups of nations, cultures, subcultures, races, or those different from themselves the way bigoted righties do. Not that any of the righties on this board are bigoted, but you won't find such bigotry among liberals and progressives. You WILL find that on the "KKK-wing" of the GOP and right-wing. Example: Not a single liberal I've ever met is anti-semetic. Plenty of rightwingers I've come across are indeed anti-semites. Even though I'm a non-religious Jew, my "antenna" is in the air and can easily detect Jew-haters from a distance, JC. Not saying anyone here is one of them....


Funny you'd say "moderates". You're so clueless.....my thoughts are those of a moderate/liberal. I benefit from the free market, and have argued against unnecessary governmental regulations. Fact is, JC, you are the "Bill O'Reilly" of Fanhome, full of bullying snark, a rightwing blowhard, and rarely accurate or right. I'm sure you think I hate America, just as you think I hate and root against the Rockies. That's why I have little respect or care for what you have to say. You are as wrongheaded as any wingnut I've ever encountered. Simple as that.

Wow, you're obviously hanging on by a pretty thin thread, man...

But, you know, come to think of it...I guess you're right. You really are a "loving and tolerant" human being, as that post clearly illustrates.

In fact, if there's a single sentiment that encapsulates the thought process that went into that rant, I suppose it would have to be "live and let live", wouldn't it?

I love that you've now thrown the "anti-semite" card too. You're like a ****ing cariciture of yourself, only you're the only one who doesn't see how truly ridiculous you sound.

[Roxpert]

The fact you don't repudiate the bigots on the extreme end of your wing, and instead choose to write a reply such as the one above, tells me all I need to know about you. It's almost always subtle when I detect it. Funny thing is that you probably don't even realize this about yourself.

Changing subjects, here's a little something for those in denial as well as those who have gotten with the program:

Gary Hart: State of the Climate - Politics on The Huffington Post

It's from the Presidential Climate Action Project. I suppose we shouldn't believe such "nonsense", lol.

And another huffpost column, describing the utterly Orwellian spin happening in the media about Iraq.....

Bob Cesca: Fareed Zakaria Says The War Is Over! Awesome! - Politics on The Huffington Post

[John Cocktoston]

Repudiate what, exactly? Why on Earth would I need to repudiate Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coulter? Because you say so? I have no affinity for or allegiance to either of them, nor have I ever indicated that they speak for me. YOU said that they speak for me. You've also compared me to Hitler, for Christ's sake!

So the question really isn't why I don't bother to repudiate the latest installment of groundless, self-aggrandizing, verbal sputum that you've expectorated onto this board...the question is just who the **** do you think you are? Seriously!

In fact, you know what? You're not the only one who is able to detect subtle traces of things. I'm fairly adept at detecting even the subtlest indications that someone is a self-absorbed, narcissistic, delusional douche bag...

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

In fact, you know what? You're not the only one who is able to detect subtle traces of things. I'm fairly adept at detecting even the subtlest indications that someone is a self-absorbed, narcissistic, delusional douche bag...

Ahh, the predictable name-calling rant. How boring.

Notice how much actual CONTENT I contribute to this thread, in the form of explanations of liberal policy opinions and links to thought-pieces. Yet, the only thing this modern-day Archie cares to write is what a douche bag I am. Even if that were true, the total lack of thoughtful replies to real content combined with endless desires to focus on and attack me is (in poker terms) the "tell". His preference is not to provide real content, but to spew hate in my general direction. I think he said it was a "fart" the other day. How becoming!

And I never compared YOU personally to Hitler. Why lie about that? If you disagree, please post the EXACT quote.

BTW, lack of anything bad to say about "BillO" and "Mann Coulter" is defacto condoning their hate and bigotry as far as I'm concerned. This lack of outrage about them and other right-wing hate mongers in the media is yet another "tell". I've smelled the stench of your kind, JC, for nearly 50 years........and it smells like fart, indeed.

[John Cocktoston]

Content? Wait, by "content", do you mean gems such as these?

"By the way, Liberals in general are the most loving and tolerant of beings on this planet."

"Not that any of the righties on this board are bigoted, but you won't find such bigotry among liberals and progressives."

"Not a single liberal I've ever met is anti-semetic."

"Even though I'm a non-religious Jew, my "antenna" is in the air and can easily detect Jew-haters from a distance, JC. Not saying anyone here is one of them...."

By the way, you look ridiculous and hypocritical when you scramble to take the high road on "name-calling" after having just puked your hateful, liberal vitriol all over me and everyone to the right of Ted Kennedy only three posts prior. I want to hear that from you about as much as I want to hear your buddy Ted Kennedy lecture me on drunk driving or hear Bill Clinton's thoughts on monogamy and extramarital sex, alright?

You are as angry and hateful a person as I've ever encountered in my life.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Thanks for the report, HF. I come across quite a few Armenian immigrants in my work, and I've never quite known what to think of their country. We hear an awful lot about political repression, which (I take it) isn't really a common theme in Armenia. Or maybe it's just dwarfed by economic considerations.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

You are as angry and hateful a person as I've ever encountered in my life.

Way to misrepresent me and the content I've provided. Still waiting for that quote where I compared you to Hitler, lol. I really think you suffer from delusional paranoia when it comes to me. Funny thing is, I'm not quite clear where you stand on ANY issues other than global warming since you expend all your energies on hating me. I know you're a liberal-hating rightwinger, but I don't quite know why. I suggest you get therapy, man.

[Heltonfan]

We hear an awful lot about political repression, which (I take it) isn't really a common theme in Armenia.

Oh, it is. I was tired last night and didn't get around to mentioning it, but it's a very common theme.

There's a presidential election next month. Back in October, the first president of Armenia, Levon Ter-Petrosyan, announced that he was returning to politics as an opposition candidate. He's quite popular (seen as the founder of independent Armenia, more or less). The current administration is generally seen as corrupt (which I assume they are, because business in general here is; this is not a merit-based society) and ineffective (which they certainly are, because there's no real progress being made in terms of relations with Turkey and Azerbaijan
and because the price of goods is increasing a heck of a lot faster than wages are).

So when Ter-Petrosyan announced his candidacy, it was a huge story. Absolutely huge. But the government prevented it from being televised, and staged a big concert (which of course was televised) on the other side of town in the hopes of drawing people away. It seems to me that the clear majority of politically interested and knowledgeable Armenians are Ter-Petrosyan supporters; it will be interesting to see what happens. Suffice it to say that this isn't a place where fair elections can be expected, either.

Roxpert and JC, knock it off. You both look like idiots.

[Roxpert]

I love reading your Armenia stories, Heltonfan. Keep it going, I'll be lurking and looking forward to more stuff from "over there".