random off-topic thread

[Heltonfan]

They and other Europeans despise us now, thanks to Bush, Cheney, and our "go it alone" foreign policies.

The issue goes far deeper than foreign policy. I was in Helsinki over my winter vacation, and made a point of reading the local papers. Here's a representative excerpt from a column written just over two weeks ago, right after the Iowa caucuses (my translation):

European "experts" already managed to virtually declare Democrat Hillary Clinton the next president - forgetting that what's in question is not a modern and liberal European country, but the conservative and deeply religious USA.

In other words, not only are we arrogant imperialists abroad, we're culturally backwards at home (note the use of the word "modern"). I'd argue if I could...

[Roxpert]

Jackass, the GOP runs on the idea that the government is the problem, not the solution. Then they win elections, and go about trying to prove they're right. They can't be trusted with the reigns of power for that reason.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by Heltonfan

In other words, not only are we arrogant imperialists abroad, we're culturally backwards at home (note the use of the word "modern"). I'd argue if I could...

Interesting, Heltonfan, but hardly surprising. I'm a bit confused by what you are referring to when saying you'd argue if you could. You mean you would dispute the notion that Finland is modern?

We are looked at as a bunch of religious redneck anti-intellectual buffoons. What a stereotype. Just talked to a fellow Democrat who just got back from England who told me he ended up telling strangers he was Canadian when asked. He got sick and tired of defending himself and other countrymen when telling locals he's American. That's how bad it has gotten. You sense the same thing?

[Heltonfan]

You mean you would dispute the notion that Finland is modern?

No, I mean I'd like to be able to dispute the notion that America is culturally backwards, but I can't. Finland is wonderful.

He got sick and tired of defending himself and other countrymen when telling locals he's American. That's how bad it has gotten. You sense the same thing?

Yep. Absolutely.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Nothing's changed. I spent quite a bit of time in Britain in the early 1980s. Funniest moment: a bunch of little schoolkids -- 11 years old? -- yelling "FASCIST" at me when they realized I was American. Those were the Reagan years.

And I'm sure the real baby boomers remember the same kind of thing happening to them during the waning days of the Vietnam War.

It's all o.k. America is different than Europe. In general, I'd like to see us become more like Western Europe. Well, maybe more like Tony Blair's Britain at least. If it were just the same as America it wouldn't be any fun to visit.

As for Finland: I was there once, in winter. The Finns were sharing a bottle of something called "Minttu" I think. (They called me a fascist too. But they still shared their booze. Nice people. Country's too damn dark in winter. Weird language. Should keep HF busy conjugating Finnverbs.) As the name implies, a kind of peppermint schnapps. There is no hangover like a Minttu hangover. Or maybe it was just the amount, not the type ...

[Roxpert]

Yep, Jackass, I think America has gotten that "Fascist" bad rap ever since the Reagan years. It has just gotten worse by an order of magntitude the past 5 years.

Truth is, the most extreme right-wingers in this country are not far from being fascists. People like Michael Savage on the radio are just whackjobs, but they appeal to the fascist nature in some people. It's really not a huge leap, when you think about it, from extreme rightwing ideology to fascism. The only thing keeping Ann Coulter from being someone right out of the 3rd Reich is our U.S. constitution. I think she would have been quite comfortable as Hitler's mistress. Ooops, I just violated Godwin's law!

[John Cocktoston]

“Fascists,” “Brownshirts,” “jackbooted stormtroopers”—such are the insults typically hurled at conservatives by their liberal opponents. Calling someone a fascist is the fastest way to shut them up, defining their views as beyond the political pale. But who are the real fascists in our midst?

Liberal Fascism offers a startling new perspective on the theories and practices that define fascist politics. Replacing conveniently manufactured myths with surprising and enlightening research, Jonah Goldberg reminds us that the original fascists were really on the left, and that liberals from Woodrow Wilson to FDR to Hillary Clinton have advocated policies and principles remarkably similar to those of Hitler's National Socialism and Mussolini's Fascism.

Contrary to what most people think, the Nazis were ardent socialists (hence the term “National socialism”). They believed in free health care and guaranteed jobs. They confiscated inherited wealth and spent vast sums on public education. They purged the church from public policy, promoted a new form of pagan spirituality, and inserted the authority of the state into every nook and cranny of daily life. The Nazis declared war on smoking, supported abortion, euthanasia, and gun control. They loathed the free market, provided generous pensions for the elderly, and maintained a strict racial quota system in their universities—where campus speech codes were all the rage. The Nazis led the world in organic farming and alternative medicine. Hitler was a strict vegetarian, and Himmler was an animal rights activist.

Do these striking parallels mean that today’s liberals are genocidal maniacs, intent on conquering the world and imposing a new racial order? Not at all. Yet it is hard to deny that modern progressivism and classical fascism shared the same intellectual roots. We often forget, for example, that Mussolini and Hitler had many admirers in the United States. W.E.B. Du Bois was inspired by Hitler's Germany, and Irving Berlin praised Mussolini in song. Many fascist tenets were espoused by American progressives like John Dewey and Woodrow Wilson, and FDR incorporated fascist policies in the New Deal.

Fascism was an international movement that appeared in different forms in different countries, depending on the vagaries of national culture and temperament. In Germany, fascism appeared as genocidal racist nationalism. In America, it took a “friendlier,” more liberal form. The modern heirs of this “friendly fascist” tradition include the New York Times, the Democratic Party, the Ivy League professoriate, and the liberals of Hollywood. The quintessential Liberal Fascist isn't an SS storm trooper; it is a female grade school teacher with an education degree from Brown or Swarthmore.

These assertions may sound strange to modern ears, but that is because we have forgotten what fascism is. In this angry, funny, smart, contentious book, Jonah Goldberg turns our preconceptions inside out and shows us the true meaning of Liberal Fascism.

Amazon.com: Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning: Books: Jonah Goldberg

[BigRapidsJackass]

JC, no use arguing about whether fascism is "liberal" or "conservative." That is a false distinction. The true distinction is between individual freedom vs. state control. Call it what you want, fascism = state control of nearly every aspect of life, whether in its Hitler/Mussolini/Franco guise or its Mao/Stalin/Pol Pot guise.

On a happier topic: Minttu schnapps. Hadn't thought about it in years. Googled it an I found out I'm not the only one who paid a steep price for that drunken ferryboat ride from Finland to Stockholm. Here's the money quote (I don't know what the hell "salmiakki" is, and I'm far too old now to want to find out):

uhhuu, salmiakki + minttu.. *horrible ferrytrip back home* >P

The Finnish version is 60% alcohol...they drink it straight ... alcohol + massive amounts of sugar + some kind of medicinal tasting peppermint extract. Strangely not that unpleasant when cut by cigarettes. A lot of them seemed to prefer "smokeless tobacco." They even sell that "snus" or "snoose" tobacco they snort like coke. Kind of like being in northern Minnesota. Or Canada. Next time the Finns get all holier than thou with Heltonfan he should remind them that they're more American than they realize. A cheap drunk on a cheap ferry boat. They even do school shootings now. Give 'em a bible and they'd start voting for Huckabee. Stick that in your Nokia and snort it.

[Roxpert]

While, technically, fascism is complete state control over people's lives, the reason the extreme right-wing has more in common with 20th century fascism is simple. FEAR is the emotion that binds fascists together, along with HATE and MILITARISM.

FEAR mongering keeps the citizens compliant.

HATE creates enemies of the state. The extreme right-wing needs enemies to thrive and stay in power.

MILITARISM fulfills the violent or barbarian desires of bigotry. It's state manifestation of mob rule.

Jonah Goldberg is an ideological rightwinger, defending and denying his wing's tendencies toward fascism by throwing it right back in the faces of the left. Extreme left-wing ideology IS communism. Communism is not fascism. But BOTH are totalitarianism.

[Heltonfan]

Country's too damn dark in winter. Weird language. Should keep HF busy conjugating Finnverbs.

I enjoy the darkness. Maybe just because I've overly romanticized my early childhood on the other side of the Baltic, but regardless.

And the language: absolutely delightful. I've dabbled in about a dozen languages (in rough chronological order: Spanish, French, German, Swedish, Arabic, Finnish, Italian, Turkish, Armenian, Russian, Georgian, Estonian), and Finnish is by far my favorite. It may not be for the linguistically faint of heart, but it's extremely logical and (for me at least) very intuitive. I have now advanced to the point where I can read newspapers and novels fairly comfortably (currently working my way through the Finnish translation of The Fellowship of the Ring), which is very exciting.

"Salmiakki" is salted licorice.

[John Cocktoston]

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

JC, no use arguing about whether fascism is "liberal" or "conservative." That is a false distinction.

Absolutely, BRJ.

My point was not not that fascism is liberal (although that is certainly Goldberg's point). I was simply making a point about hyperbole, which is that it cuts both ways.

You would think liberals would have learned that after watching the Clintons (of all people) labeled "racists" by the Obama camp last week. The Clintons aren't "racist" any more than conservatives are "fascists" or bear any sort of resemblance to Adolf Hitler.

But that's the liberals' game: you throw out terms like "bigot", "sexist", "racist" and "fascist" and you compare anyone who doesn't share your philosophy on the economy, social policy or international diplomacy to Adolf Hitler...then you call it a day. It's pretty straight-forward, actually.

[BigRapidsJackass]

HF, interesting comments. I do have to admit I'm more of the lazy American traveler. Those Nordic types all know English and they want to use it. Far be it for me to try to force them to allow me to practice my Finnish phrasebook entries.

Isn't Armenian supposed to be one of the most difficult languages to learn?

By the way, what are your general impressions of Armenia?

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

But that's the liberals' game: you throw out terms like "bigot", "sexist", "racist" and "fascist" and you compare anyone who doesn't share your philosophy on the economy, social policy or international diplomacy to Adolf Hitler...then you call it a day. It's pretty straight-forward, actually.

A bit defensive, aren't you, JC? (What's good for the goose...)

[John Cocktoston]

Yawn.

[indianadrew]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

you throw out terms like "bigot", "sexist", "racist" and "fascist" and you compare anyone who doesn't share your philosophy on the economy, social policy or international diplomacy to Adolf Hitler...then you call it a day. It's pretty straight-forward, actually.

JC i would say extremists on both ends of the spectrum use that tactic.