Until Monfort sells the Team/ Astute fans can only dream

[Newman]

Originally Posted by rockieprogress

***

And you buy what the sports writers advocate right? Turmoil, so that they have a convenient byline every day, like the QB controversy which the minions have come to believe is the only problem keeping the Broncos from winning. Controversy is easy to write about for weeks, the Offensive co-ordinator leaving to get a Head Coaching job only provides enough material for ONE COLUMN.

General, YES WE SHOULD STAY THE COURSE. Why don't you quit with your petty whinning about what someone has posted.
Look at the A's. They're successful using the "smallball/fiscal responsibility" approach. They've made the playoffs ALOT lately, and yet they FIRED THEIR MANAGER this year because he didn't get along with the players.

The difference between the A's and the philosophy you espouse for the Rockies, is the A's have a tradition of bringing up younger players and trading them away when they get to be FA eligible, because they KNOW their farm system WILL deliver quality, ready players to the show, and the teams you've followed haven't done that. Maybe we should be like the Yankees, and spend 4 times what we are?



Sandy Alderson, now the GM of the Padres started the A's on the path they follow in the 80's. They had lean times, especially when Billy Martin burned up the arms on the pitching staff, but they knew it would work, and now they follow the path religiously, because for them it works.
We've been doing it for 3 years, and just as we can move forward, people that have never seen the philosophy up close, and followed it day-by-day, want to scrap what can work and go back to what hasn't worked in the past.

Good Call General...

How successful have the Rockies been by staying the course? What did we win last year? 76 games? Do you call that success, Rockies Progress?

I think what Monfort/O'Dowd is advocating is turmoil. Think of it. As soon as someone qualifies to make real money, they are shipped away for young prospects, who may or may not succeed at the big league level. What happened to Gen R?

When the A's were good they had a good core group. According to this stay the course plan we will never have a core group. Atkins will be the next to leave. Only that idiot Francis signed at the hometown discount.

Who do you consider our core, Progress? Choo Freeman? Cory Sullivan?

I submit that the A's have a better farm system than we do.

So we trade Jennings for some future player, then trade Atkins, then Holliday, then keep scamming the public, telling those saps that we are maintaining our budget, and that we should be able to compete in another 3 years, in another 3 years, in another 3 years, in another 3 years.

In Vietnam we called this "light at the end of the tunnel".

[denverbearsfan]

Originally Posted by RMF

I think you have to examine moving Atkins, Holliday and Jennings this offseason. That might yield us a ton of young talent. It wouldn't be too different from what Florida has repeatedly done. However, it's a move that is guaranteed to get O'Sage fired.

I agree it is time to move Jennings, and maybe Atkins. Some say trade Jennings at the 2007 trading deadline but I think his value may never be higher than now (I'm not confident he'll pitch as well in 2007 for the Rockies as he did last year)

Good forum by the way. Wondered why it was so quiet over at Scout (I found this tonight)

denverbearsfan
(longtime denver resident, nickname for remembering the glory days of GOOD minor league baseball in this town)

[rockieprogress]

General, you missed the "just as we are ready to move forward". The hard part of waiting for the system to get restocked is done. Now they only have to draft astutely to keep the flow coming. Will there be hiccups, sure. But the hard part is done.
Its not 3years, 3years, 3years...
Its not 76 wins.
Its "we're ready to move forward, and excuses are not going to cut it".

How successful has the organization been? Try having everyone in MLB knowing you have a strong Minor League system. You won't see progress on the ML club, but that doesn't mean REAL PROGRESS hasn't been taking place.
The fans want to see the club spend like the Yankees, but the Yankees don't win it all every year. The Tigers follow the farm-system resupply theory to a degree, and they made the WS. The Twins follow it to a higher degree, and they won their Division didn't they? The A's, follow it to the highest degree, and they've been perenially successful. Their fans probably didn't understand what their organizations were doing when they started down the chosen path, but they get to reap the reward for their patience.

The Rockie fans can get the same reward. Did you not notice that I'm all for firing the people in charge (especially the BRJ) if they can't get the job done ONCE THE SYSTEM HAS THE FRAMEWORK IN PLACE where advancement in the division is realistic. Until now, it hasn't been realistic, but NOW it is.

Stay the course. There might be some rapids to go through, but their isn't a waterfall that endangers the path of the journey.

[Newman]

Sandy Clough gave an eloquent presentation on the Fan radio this morning, 950am dial. He pretty much sees it the way I do.

Monfort is going to spin that we are a fiscally responsible team. That connects with a lot of people for some odd reason. I think that phrase, "fiscally responsible", is code for a AAA team that cannot compete.

Taveras has a bad OBP and no power. I guess he can throw better than Juan Pierre, but...

The company spin is to attack Jason Jennings for being greedy (for wanting market value). Just because Gil Meche is getting $55M for 5 years, our boy Jennings should take $24M for 3? And why is that, Charlie?

During part of Sandy's radio rap he said, "...they turned the Humidor off in September." I was thinking the same damn thing back then. Was nice to hear confirmation of that good guess.

Rockiesprogress, dream on. Stay the course if you want. That course is "wait a couple of years." That's the course, and it never is now. We will never be playing for this year. It will always be next season or the one after that or wait until Helton's contract is off the books or wait until pigs fly.

This is the new way forward.

Funny, it looks like the same way it's been since O'Dowd has been here. What is O'Dowd's record as a GM? I wonder...

[RMF]

The new GM won't have too much of a hole. Unfortuntately he won't have any $$$ either.

Knowing these clowns will be out the door in 365 days makes me feel better. I've heard that Monfort is drinking again and he's become a spiritualist. Apparently the Christian players are out of favor. Something about them being dirty rotten no good liars.

Season ticket holders will get a thank you crystal with their ticket renewal.

[rockieprogress]

General, Sandy Clough? Noted optomist there. He's exactly the type of Sportcaster I was talking about that always gets weeks worth of material by taking the negative approach. Thats what I meant by "turmoil".

Take a minute and consider this. If you lived in the SF BayArea, the theory you espouse would make you a Giants fan (sorry Roxpert). Sign players that make no sense to the overall purpose of winning. Barroid was signed to put butts in the seats next year, not to facilitate winning the Division title.

I follow the A's. They don't sell the farm at the first sign of improvement, and recognize that improvements need to be made EVERY YEAR to support longterm success for the franchise. That's what allows them to trade away Hudson and Mulder, and let Zito walk. But Haren has taken their place quite admirably. In fact he's done such a good job, the Mets want to acquire him.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2006/1...ovet_dan_.html

Yet, if the big 3 were still there, he never would've been given the chance to develop in the A's system, because the A's got him for Mulder from the Cards. Mulder hasn't done much, because he's been hurt, so the A's have won on this trade.

Will mistakes be made? sure they will. But the successes will likely outweigh the mistakes when it comes to the trades. Why? Because the trades are no longer being made of desparation, they can now be made to improve the team. That's what a minor league system gives you -options-.

If you pick apart all trades that the Rockies make, by basing your arguments on a moving target (this one sux because they overpaid, this one sux because they were too cheap to pay him what he wanted, his stats are terrible, et al) you can't be held accountable for your inaccuracies.
And that's what you want. It is easier to run around saying "see, they suck because of "X"", But if the Rockies do succeed, then you'll be the first to line up using the "I never said I wanted them to fail, I'm just surprised it took them this long to figure out what I knew all along".

That's my take on what you're posting. Change my mind by posting EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD DO TO IMPROVE THE TEAM.
But stop whinning would you.

[Newman]

I think I'd rather be labeled a whiner than a sap. I don't like to be taken for a fool, do you RockiesProgress?

Are you saying that there is light at the end of the tunnel? Are we playoff bound this year in your mind? Have you bought season tickets? What convinced you? Willie Taveras' 1 home run last season

What I would do would be to fire Hurdle and O'Dowd and hire better replacements. The A's do better, in part, because they are smarter than we are. They have better scouts too. A better farm system.

Maybe I'd hire Don Rumsfeld as GM. I'm sure he could find "a new way forward."

All this stuff has been said many times before. Talent costs money. I wouldn't be afraid to spend money. You have to get back up on the horse again after you fall off. Monfort never did, after those two nags, Hampton and Neagle, threw him to the ground.

[Below C-Level]

"If I could work my will," said Scrooge indignantly, "every idiot who goes about with 'Merry Christmas' on his lips, should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart. He should!"

No, Newman, of course there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Or, if there is, it's probably just the light of the oncoming train...

You bring up a great point regarding Taveras' power potential, too. The Rockies really hamstrung themselves going out and getting a middle of the order bat that only produced 1 HR last year, huh? Between Taveras' lack of power and BK Kim's seeming inability to throw an overhand curveball, the Rox are doomed. Doomed I say!!!

[rockieprogress]

General, its easy to say you'ld fire the BRJ and DOD, but who would you hire? Thats the kind of EXACT I was talking about. Don't generalize, be specific.

If you read Dave Krieger yesterday, he spells out how we, as fans, should judge these trades. We got Ramirez for Chacon. Which one of those would you rather have right now? The A's got Haren for Mulder. Same thing, which one would you rather have?

A sap? Having been a fan of the A's since 1970, and having seen them go through a cheap owner, and Charlie O Finley made the Monforts look like free spenders, and then rebuilding their organization into what it has become doesn't make me a sap. I've seen it done, and THATS what makes me confident they're going down the right track. Having experienced it before, is what allows me to evaluate the moves they've made and compare them to my previous experience with the same situation.
You know what? It's very similar. They will make some mistakes (the A's weren't perfect in every move when they did it either) but what the Rockies are doing is like watching a rerun of what the A's did.

Going through 5 years of pain is worth it to me. Look at the Royals fans, they've been waiting for their team to do something since the early 80's, and with the signing of Meche, it looks like they'll be waiting a lot longer now to get back into the playoffs.

[Newman]

Doomed, C-Level? I think not. We will win our usual 72-76 games. Apparently winning is not something you care about. That's what separates us. I care about winning a lot. The losing sickens me. I'm tired of being a sub .500 franchise.

RProgress, how manyyears exactly do you think it will take for us to break the .500 barrier? To win the wild card. To win the division? Will any of that happen in 2007? In three years? Five?

I'd like to have Boston's GM and their ownership group too. Theo broke the curse of the Bambino. He should get a lot of credit for that. Now he just signed the best Japanese pitcher. He has brains, takes chances, and haas experienced victory. Plus his ownership has money.

You need both RP.

If you love the A's so much, why do you come on this site? What's the attraction to a loser franchise for you?

[wolf213]

Oh so I see now in your eyes people need to Justify why they are fans of this team?

Newman your a one trick pony, and that Trick was old about 5 years ago.

[GoldGlove]

Newman is the kind of fan that just loves to complain and doesn't want to see any actual improvement, because if he did, he wouldn't have as much to complain about. If he wanted to see improvement, he'd offer up what he believes to be real, specific solutions, rather than just saying the same old "the Rockies are a loser franchise" line along with some political nonsense that no one cares to hear about.

[indianadrew]

"Newman is the kind of fan that just loves to complain and doesn't want to see any actual improvement"

this is what i refer to as old muppet syndrome. for anybody who is about my age, 37, you will remember the muppet show. the tow old guys that sit in the balcony. yeah those guys. all they did was piss and moan all show. the irony that made them very funny was that they were there EVERY night.

"saying the same old "the Rockies are a loser franchise" line along with some political nonsense that no one cares to hear about"

this is called whinus liberitas

when and if the democrats take over the white house, they already have the house and senate, things probably wont be too much diffrent. if we really want change there has to be a powerfull third party or more joe libermans. i am taking a strong look at the libertarian party.

[Heltonfan]

I think we've drifted far enough away from the topic...