Until Monfort sells the Team/ Astute fans can only dream

[Newman]

Originally Posted by rockieprogress

That's exactly what I thought when I read the article. Atkins might be sent packing in the near future. It's certain that Holliday while be gone, and I say good ridance. All the stats in the world mask the fact that he sux in the field, but at least the organization knows that he''s soft when it counts. THAT was refreshing to see IMO.

Hey Cowboy, maybe you need to schedule a dinner meeting...

Roxpert, I disagree with your 2 year timeframe. Without the players needed, its unfair to judge the Manager.

Man this horse carcass is getting ripe...

What you're saying is STAY THE COURSE. When players get expensive, like Jennings or Holliday or Atkins, then trade them. Perpetual rebuilding mode. Always, always tell the public to wait til next year. They buy that stuff.

What this spin is simply put is fiscal responsibility. We all admire that. Juan Pierre isn't worth $8M a year or whatever he got. Wait til the prices come down to where they should be.

Sigh. That means keep fielding a fiscally responsible AAA team.

The article shows that Monfort/O'Dowd doesn't know how to negotiate with modern agents. Swell. Just like Bush doesn't want to negotiate with Iran or Syria.

Who cares who the manager is? Even Earl Weaver couldn't propel a AAA team to the playoffs. It's immaterial, irrelevant. Fire Hurdle now. Make Todd Helton the player/manager. Save some money. Be fiscally responsible.

Boycott the Rockies until they get an owner that can play with the big boys. RockiesProgress, let go of that damn horse! He's mine, mine, mine I tell you. I've nurtured that nag for years, brushed him, fed him, exercised him. GIVE ME BACK MY HORSE (imagine Mel Gibson yelling).

[Below C-Level]

Newman, I think it's wrong to say that fiscal responsibility equates to perpetual rebuilding, just as it's wrong to say that spending equates to competitiveness. It's never solely about the payroll.

Just getting the payroll to $80 million means nothing to make you "more competitive" if you got there by signing Juan Pierre, Adam Eaton and Gil Meche to multi-year contracts. In fact, you're probably making yourself less competitive.

You want them to spend right now and become competitive right now, but who, specifically, do you suggest they go after?

They're not exploring trades for Jason Jennings because they don't want to pay him market rate. They're exploring trades because they don't want to pay market rate +50%, which is what the Winter of 2006 has been all about. They offered Jennings 3 yrs/$24 million which is about right, all things considered. He wants closer to 4yrs/$40 million and, in this market, he'll likely get it. But that doesn't mean that the Rockies should be the ones to give it to him any more than the fact that the Rockies need a CF means they should have been the ones throwing $44 million at Juan Pierre.

The fact that the market is what it is means that it'll be nearly impossible to sign Jennings or Atkins to an extension, but it also means they're in the driver's seat when it comes to trading them. It's one thing to move Jennings in a salary dump; it's another to move him in a deal that returns Jason Hirsh, an elite pitching prospect who isn't eligible for free agency until 2012, and a ML ready outfielder. That's not a salary dump, it's selling high. There's a huge difference, in my opinion.

Spending in free agency can get you over the top, but it's an awfully risky (and ineffective) way of trying to make yourself competitive. The Royals went out and dropped about $16 million in guaranteed money for 2007 to get Gil Meche and Octavio Dotel. Are they any better off for it?

[rockieprogress]

***What you're saying is STAY THE COURSE. When players get expensive, like Jennings or Holliday or Atkins, then trade them. Perpetual rebuilding mode. Always, always tell the public to wait til next year. They buy that stuff. ***

When I figure out how to use quotes, I'll make this look right.

And you buy what the sports writers advocate right? Turmoil, so that they have a convenient byline every day, like the QB controversy which the minions have come to believe is the only problem keeping the Broncos from winning. Controversy is easy to write about for weeks, the Offensive co-ordinator leaving to get a Head Coaching job only provides enough material for ONE COLUMN.

General, YES WE SHOULD STAY THE COURSE. Why don't you quit with your petty whinning about what someone has posted.
Look at the A's. They're successful using the "smallball/fiscal responsibility" approach. They've made the playoffs ALOT lately, and yet they FIRED THEIR MANAGER this year because he didn't get along with the players.

The difference between the A's and the philosophy you espouse for the Rockies, is the A's have a tradition of bringing up younger players and trading them away when they get to be FA eligible, because they KNOW their farm system WILL deliver quality, ready players to the show, and the teams you've followed haven't done that. Maybe we should be like the Yankees, and spend 4 times what we are?

FYI, I fully agree with Roxpert's line of thought that the Rockies need to get their payroll up to where the A's are at. About $80M
But that isn't going to happen in ONE YEAR.
The farm system, which was gutted and never restocked to facilitate YOUR philosophical desire of win it all NOW, has been restocked. Top to bottom, in 4 years.
Last year was the FIRST YEAR the Rockies have been able to move forward, and they made progress in determining where changes need to be made, and some of them were made, ie Tulo and Iannetta, and some weren't made, ie CF.

So now we should SELL THE FUTURE and sign Meche for $55M? JD Drew for $70M? Good call on your part.

If you read what I posted, you would've noticed that I said a single losing streak of 5 games, and heads should roll. Why? Because the Rockies NOW have the team that should be able to avoid those kinds of debilitating losing streaks that wreck a season. They aren't trying to see if Sullivan will adapt to MLB Pitching. They should know by now that he's an acceptable defensive replacement, but not a starter. They don't need to figure out what makes the team work, and if they haven't figured it out by now, they should be FIRED because they never will.

That is completely different from changing philosophy AGAIN to a SPEND, SPEND, SPEND... LOSE, LOSE, LOSE, philosophy that it appears that YOU advocate.
It didn't work here in the past, as Tracy pointed out, as the Rockies have NEVER won more than 83 games in ANY SEASON. That's not winning baseball, that's mediocre baseball.

FLA wins by restocking their team, adding the players to fill the gaps, and ripping it apart after they win it all. The Rockies could've done the same thing this year, but in case you didn't notice, the FA market is totally out of line with the expected level of production. So they couldn't go that route THIS YEAR. That doesn't mean they couldn't revisit filling their holes next year.
But in the meantime, if they can trade JJ, which would be kinda like the A's trading their Big 3 SP's 2 years ago, Mulder and Hudson, and not losing them to FA like they did with Zito, and fill the holes this year, then I'm all for that as long as they get more players that will help them get closer to winning.

Sandy Alderson, now the GM of the Padres started the A's on the path they follow in the 80's. They had lean times, especially when Billy Martin burned up the arms on the pitching staff, but they knew it would work, and now they follow the path religiously, because for them it works.
We've been doing it for 3 years, and just as we can move forward, people that have never seen the philosophy up close, and followed it day-by-day, want to scrap what can work and go back to what hasn't worked in the past.

Good Call General...

[indianadrew]

looks like it is on!!

[madness]

I don't buy the idea that the Rockies can't retain all star players. Not all players will be like Holliday and have an agent determined to go to free agency.

The Mets, IMO, did a great job this year of identifying young players that they wanted to keep and offering them long-term contracts that were lucrative (but not what they might have gotten on the FA in a few years).

The key is identifying which players are the foundation of the franchise and which players to ride until they approach FA and then trading them at thier peak value for more young talent to replenish the organization.

If we had offered JJ 3 years and 24 million dollars last off-season it is much more likely that he would have accepted it. Heck, if we had opened with our final offers to both JJ and Atkins this off-season instead of trying to low-ball them in what everyone sensed was a player's market then we might have gotten them both to ink new deals before the market went completely insane.

You have to pay a premium for talent but the key is to pay the right premium. Offer a rich enough contract early enough and most players who are happy with the organization will sign the contracts.

[RMF]

You have to wonder a few things. First, when will Charlie Monfort stop taking Dave Krieger out to lunch? Second, when will Charlie Monfort learn to shut his mouth? Third, why was Monfort expecting a loyalty discount?

I mean Gil Meche gets 55 million over 5 years. If I were JJ I'd want a big multi year deal too. That is the business. The Rocks can either trade him now and get a nice guaranteed return or trade him at the deadline. It is what it is. Or they can give him a market value contract. (I suggest they trade him)

Business is business, plain and simple. Why should a player take less? This latest outburst from the owner, just confirms to me, that the wrong people own this franchise.

The Colorado Rockies don't operate in a dreamworld/fantasyland independent from reality. Somebody should explain that to our owner. Does Charlie think JJ should take a 20% discount because the organization has Bibles lying around?

Can we get into the games for a 30% discount if we bring our bibles? When they decide to sell the franchise will they give a 30% discount on the market value because they like the people who are buying it?

Charlie, stop talking to the press and sell the franchise

Thank goodness Hurdle and O'dowd will be gone after this season.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by RMF

The Colorado Rockies don't operate in a dreamworld/fantasyland independent from reality. Somebody should explain that to our owner.

I agree with that, and hope Charlie realizes that in a high-stakes card game, he had better come with a large pile of chips, or he is certain to lose.

Obviously, he has to realize that worse pitchers are making far more $$$$ than Jennings was offered, and his agent probably explained that the best strategy is to bide their time, and not respond to such an insulting low-ball offer. Let Charlie squirm or, better yet, force their hands to get him traded to Texas, Houston, or maybe even Boston.

Charlie talks about loyalty. LOYALTY? There's no loyalty in baseball! And he should stop crying about it, because there's no crying in baseball either!!

Thank goodness Hurdle and O'dowd will be gone after this season.

RMF, I can see that you don't think we will have more success next year than we had this year! I'll second that notion, unfortunately.

[Below C-Level]

I don't know. Maybe I've got bright red Kool-Aid lips, but I think this team could surprise some people this year. On paper, they're a year and a couple of free agent signings away from being awfully interesting in 2008. But I think they might be a good bit better than people think in 2007 and it's not like it will take 100 wins to walk away with the NL West.

Imagine if, all of a sudden, the plan that Monfort and O'Dowd have been talking about these last few years results in a young, major league experienced team in 2007 that's supported by a stocked farm system. Throw in a couple of strategic free agent signings next Winter and I think there's a chance O'Dowd has the last laugh yet...

We shall see, I suppose.

[BigRapidsJackass]

The $80 million dollar payroll level THIS year? So you want Gil Meche, Nomar Garciapara, and Ted Lilly? Because that's about all you'd get. Going out and spending this year would be stupid --- and while we know the Rockies are fond of dumb decisions, I for one am happy this is one time they didn't go out and do the dumb thing.

Well, not so fast.

An $80 million payroll for next season would mean about $25 million more than what we've spent. So yes, you could've bought one Nomar + one Gil Meche and had a little left over. And then you'd be stuck with Meche through the 2011 season. So I don't like that either.

But there've been some perfectly decent signings this offseason, too. Try this scenario:

How about Dave Roberts at $6 million + an extension to JJ at an average of $10 million (you should get a discount off the current market rate for free agents since it's in JJ's interest to lock up a big money deal now ... although he's never had arm trouble, there's no guarantee he'll stay healthy in '07). And then you'd have $9 million bucks left over. Maybe you'd take a shot on Eric Gagne? If he's healthy, either Fuentes and Gagne would be an amazing 1-2 punch, or you could trade either of them for a king's ransom. Or maybe you don't sign LaTroy Hawkins, and instead you get a couple relievers in the peak of their careers, instead of on the serious downswing like Hawkins. Or maybe you get Miguel Bautista (no great pitcher, but a solid albeit pricey addition), and that gives you more flexibility to deal JJ and fill a need elsewhere.

At any rate, there's plenty of good deals that've been done this offseason. And those deals have given the teams making them a better shot at the playoffs. And any number of them would've made the Rockies better.

[Below C-Level]

I think I see what you're saying, but the question isn't whether they could incrementally improve the 2007 roster by spending $25 million. Of course they could. But even given your specific examples, I'm not sure how that's a well spent $25 million.

To begin with, allocating $9 million in guaranteed money to Eric Gagne would be a little like walking up to the roulette table and putting a third of your bankroll on black because "there's a decent chance it will hit."

He's a tremendous injury risk, which is why only one or two teams are even rumored to be offering him the $5 or $6 million in guaranteed money that Boras is seeking. He could be worth every bit of $9 million, but you're talking about a guy who has pitched 15 innings in the last 2 years, during which time he's been under the knife twice (elbow, back). Oh, and he has a Tommy John surgery in his past for good measure. That's a deal that will be structured such that you either get a $9 million pitcher for $9 million or you get an unmitigated disaster for $5 million, but either way it's not the kind of deal the Rockies need for 2007.

Next, Dave Roberts is Dave Roberts. I love the guy, but he's a 34 year old outfielder whose one above average skill (speed) happens to be the one that declines the most precipitously with advancing age. And why do you thing he would have taken a 1 year deal in Colorado when he ended up getting a 3 year deal in San Francisco? (I'm assuming you weren't saying that the answer in CF for Colorado in 2007-2009 would be Dave Roberts for $18 million). More importantly, why even spend $6 million for Dave Roberts? Why not sign Kenny Lofton, essentially the same player, for less money and 1 year?

As for Jennings, it may be a matter of semantics but he's already on the roster and thus giving him an extension does nothing to improve the 2007 roster.

[Newman]

Why did Francis agree to a 4 year extension at a cut rate, home town discount price? That makes no sense to me. They kept telling me that he was smart. Sounds dumb to me.

Now there's a thread that Atkins will be leaving?

It's a sinking ship. Except for Francis, every home grown talent will be leaving here, because of the Jennings example. Monfort will not pay the going rate, market value, for your talent. He shows no loyalty to his players. Why should the players be loyal to him?

If I were an agent I would advise my Rockies client to leave! You can get the same money elsewhere and you'll have a much better, strike that, you'll have a chance to win, to get into the playoffs. That will never happen here in colorado with Monfort as owner.

[BigRapidsJackass]

Francis did not "agree to a hometown discount."

Like all non-free agent pitchers, he hedged his bets and signed a deal that ensures his longterm financial security even if his left arm is severed in a Christmas ham-carving accident.

Up to this point, Francis has made the minimum salary. He had a nice signing bonus, and then he's made about $700,000 in big league salary. Not bad at all for your average 25 year old, but not exactly enough to never have to work again in your life in the event of catastrophic injury.

So it was a fair deal all around.

And that's why it still makes sense to sign JJ now, although I'm guessing a kind of sign-and-trade is more likely for him.

[Below C-Level]

I'm beginning to question whether you're more interested in flaming the Rockies at all costs than you are a genuine discussion of the issue, but here goes nothing...

Francis wasn't eligible for free agency until 2011. He made $336,000 last year and would have made roughly that again this year. Under the terms of the extension, however, he gets a $500,000 signing bonus and a 2007 salary of $500,000. So that's a quick $1 million in guaranteed money for 2007.

Here are his subsequent salaries under the terms of the extension:

2008 $2.75 million
2009 $3.75 million
2010 $5.75 million

The record for a first time arbitration eligible pitcher was set by Dontrelle Willis when he signed a $4.35 million contract that had fully $1.5 million deferred money. That's the RECORD and it was coming off of a season in which Dontrelle won 22 games! Inflated market or not, I think it's safe to assume Jeff Francis wasn't going to be asking the arbitrator for much more than $3 million next Winter.

From there, it's all a matter of the annual increases, but $4.75 AAV in 2009 and 2010 isn't too bad. Even if he outperforms the deal, the club will exercise its option at $7 million in 2011 and the last three years of his deal will effectively be $5.5 million per. He'll be a free agent at the age of 30, which is the exact situation that Ted Lilly found himself in this Winter when he signed a 4 year deal for $40 million.

It's not like Francis won't still get a chance for a big payday if he performs; he's just opted to trade the opportunity to make marginally more money through the arbitration process (if all went well) for considerably more money now.

Having young, productive 0-3 service time players on your roster is a good thing, even if some of them end up being traded away before or during their arbitration years. It's a good problem to have and I see nothing that you can point to that would justify your assertion that the Rockies are likely to run these kids out of town on rails. When has that happened in the past? Answer: never, because they've never been in this situation. Let it play out rather than criticizing hypothetical moves driven by hypothetical motives and agendas.

[RMF]

After reading the Krieger article again. I have a different opinion. I think my bias against Charlie Burger clouded my interpretation. Monfort advocates getting a fair contract for Jennings. He says lets get a # from JJ's agent. Then we'll pay or pass. That seems completely and totally reasonable.

Scarcity is driving this market and the first team to make their pieces available could get a ton of value in return. It is hard for me to imagine Atkins value ever being higher. If you can't afford these guys then move them. Get a ton of prospects in return. Look what Florida did when they traded young players.

The Angels need some big bats pretty bad and they've got a tremendous amount of minor league talent. Boston could use a 3B.

I think you have to examine moving Atkins, Holliday and Jennings this offseason. That might yield us a ton of young talent. It wouldn't be too different from what Florida has repeatedly done. However, it's a move that is guaranteed to get O'Sage fired.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Below C-Level

Newman,

The fact that the market is what it is means that it'll be nearly impossible to sign Jennings or Atkins to an extension, but it also means they're in the driver's seat when it comes to trading them. It's one thing to move Jennings in a salary dump; it's another to move him in a deal that returns Jason Hirsh, an elite pitching prospect who isn't eligible for free agency until 2012, and a ML ready outfielder. That's not a salary dump, it's selling high. There's a huge difference, in my opinion.
?

C Level, doesn't this mean that we will always be playing for later? Let's say we trade Jennings for Hirsh. Hirsh won't be ready for 3 more years (if then). Then we do the same with Atkins. It's a vicious cycle. We get rid of proven players, home grown players, just when they are at the point when they can earn real money.

The other players and their agents aren't fools. They see what Monfort and O'Dowd are doing. Don't you think our veterans will be discussing this in the clubhouse? What kind of atmosphere is that to develop?

If Monfort is too poor to compete...:beat dh icon: