Final "What on Earth was Hurdle Thinking" Thread

BigRapidsJackass · 10-29-2007, 01:25 AM

It's over, and I'm actually o.k. with that. I got to see 2 World Series games in person, without having to travel thousands of miles. Yes, I'm bragging. It was fun. Red Sox fans were there, but these were Rockies' crowds. Not like a regular season game would've been. We got beat by a better club. I still don't get how Jon Lester has the best game of his career in the World Series, at Coors, after hardly pitching at all for several weeks and looking like crap in the playoffs. After tonight, I think Boston's "pitching dominance" was more about the Rockies' offensive ineptitude.

Now onto what I don't understand:

1. Newman already mentioned how Hurdle went to Morales in Game 3 and actually had him leading off an inning. No one has explained why he went to Morales, and no can ever explain why Morales was allowed to bat.

2. Tonight: the most inexplicable double switch ever. I don't mean "Hurdle's most inexplicable double switch." I mean, "I've never seen a dumber double switch in my life." Tulo makes the last out in the bottom of the 7th. Fuentes in to the power chords of Metallica's "Enter the Gas Can." (Where's Corpas? Isn't he our best? Isn't that why he took the closer's role away from Fuentes? I guess we're saving him for the next game, you know, THE ONE SCHEDULED FOR APRIL 1, 2008.)

Jamey Carroll in to play 2B in the double switch. Carroll slotted to bat 9th in the order, Fuentes penciled into Matsui's leadoff spot. Geez, that'll really benefit your team in the bottom of the 8th/9th. That's just what we want down a run in the 8h inning: a better bat out of the lineup in exchange for the weakest hitter on our bench. Bottom 8th: Atkins hits one out. Imagine that we get a big inning going with Spilly/Hawpe/Yorvit after the HR. Imagine you've got the bases loaded, down a run. What would you do? YOU'D PINCH HIT FOR JAMEY CARROLL ANYWAY! Instead, you don't mount a rally. You go to the 9th. Willy Taveras is sitting in the dugout. If anyone can get on against Papelbon, isn't it Willy? I mean, dropping a bunt on this guy, stealing 2nd on him, and hoping for a cheap hit to bring him home is about the best scenario I can come up with. But no, Yorvit hits. Then Carroll hits. Yeah, he gives it a ride. Nice, but a long out is an out. Then -- batting for Corpas, in the leadoff spot, where Matsui should still be: Seth Smith. Goodnight. See you in April, boys.

Clint, your double switch gave up a better offensive player for a poorer one, all for the "advantage" of shifting the pitcher's spot exactly one batter forward, even though you still had Baker, Taveras, Smith, and Iannetta available off the bench. Idiotic.

Really, please try to explain this double switch. It's so mind boggling that I won't be able to sleep until a figure out some reason -- ANY reason -- for doing it. So far the best I've come up with is this: Hurdle wanted to get Carroll in a game so Jamey can always say he played in a World Series. Seriously, I think that's what was going on here, just like I think he went to Morales so that Franklin wouldn't go into the offseason with a bad taste in his mouth. Nice guys finish last, or at least they get swept.

3. I saved the best for last. Heltonfan had wondered why anyone would start Fogg before Cook. After all, if the Series had gone 7, the Game 3 starter would be starting Game 7. And wouldn't you want that to be your second-best starter (Cook) and not your worst one?

Well, it wasn't going 7, but I'll leave you with this thought: if Cook had started Game 3, we'd still be playing tomorrow.

Newman · 10-29-2007, 08:25 AM

Well said, Jackass.

Can't explain it. I think he was doing the Christian thing, like you suggested, and wanted to get Jamie in a World Series before he's released by the Rockies and get that bad taste out of Franklin's mouth.

But what message does that send to the team?

So much for Fogg being the Dragon slayer. I was so tired ofhearing that nickname.

Cook looked sharp. No rust there. Can anyone explain that? He had a 90 game layoff and no rust.

GerryInCS · 10-29-2007, 11:30 AM

If Clint was doing it to get Jamey into WS game then he should've stuck him when we're getting blown out in game 1 or 3, not when the game was still in doubt last night.

Roxpert · 10-29-2007, 11:59 AM

I would take Hurdle to task for the outcome of last night's game, not that it would have made any difference in the World Series outcome.

Firstly, it was a show of stubbornnes that Clint brought in Fuentes in the 8th inning. Reminded me of how he stuck with Chacon as closer for almost all of 2004. Wasn't it clear by now that Fuentes wasn't right, having allowed 3 runs in each of his last two outings at Coors? It's "do or die" time, and Manny Corpas had only faced ONE batter in the World Series up to that point. It's clearly a no-brainer to bring Manny in for the top of the 8th and get two innings from him in order to give us the BEST chance to come back and win. The gopher ball Fuentes gave up to Kielty turned out to be the difference.

Secondly, what was Hurdle doing in having Cook pitch to Varitek with one out and a runner on 2nd? Even Tim McCarver said (I watched the replay) that you have to pitch around him or give him the IBB with Lugo and Lester due to follow. It was a much more obvious IBB opportunity with the sinkerballer on the mound than walking Manny the night before to load the bases with nobody out to face Lowell. Lugo did follow with a single, but the pitch he got might have been different with runners on 1st and 2nd, and that RBI by Varitek was huge.

Third, why would Hurdle play the infield in during the 1st inning of a scoreless game? Buck Martinez said on XM this morning that it "created an air of panic" in the Rockies dugout. It's also a microcosm of why we were swept........we PRESSED. Our hitters pressed in trying to hit homeruns and striking out too much all series long, and our manager even pressed by doing things like playing the infield in so early in the game. This particular decision did not affect the score, however, since Manny followed with a DP.

Finally, Clint Hurdle could have made a better choice than Seth Smith to make the final out last night. Down by a run, he needed to go with the one guy who has the best chance to get a Paplebon fastball onto the fat part of the bat and hit it out to tie the score. That hitter would have been Baker. Smith has never homered in the majors, and Jeff Baker has a real shot at tying the score with one swing. Righty vs. righty? Forget that, as Jamey Carroll, another righty, took Ellsbury to the wall just before Smith struck out for the final out of the World Series.

Again, while this was a poorly managed game by Clint, it didn't matter except to lower the chances of us having a Game 5 tonight. At least we who have tickets get to save $$$$ with the refund checks we'll be getting in 4 to 6 weeks!

rockieprogress · 10-29-2007, 01:01 PM

After Cook bunted for a hit, I would've thought that Hurdle would've used Tavares to do the same thing.
As Roto said, a bunt, a stolen base, and a runner in scoring position. Maybe they were saving him to PR if someone got on...

While I agree that the players were "pressing", it seems that the Manager was "pressing" just as much as the players were. I think he alluded to that in his post-game comments with his "biggest game in 33 years" comment.

BigRapidsJackass · 10-29-2007, 02:00 PM

I didn't even notice the infield-in thing. It doesn't surprise me, since Clint did the same type of thing in Game 3 when he intentionally walked Manny in (I think) the 3rd inning. It just seems like he had zero confidence in the ability of his club to come back.

BigRapidsJackass · 10-30-2007, 12:34 AM

With the end of the World Series, the popular wisdom is that the Red Sox completely outclassed the Rockies. I mean, the Rox had zero chance of winning even one game, right?

No, not right. At least one guy was paying attention:

Baseball Toaster: Mike's Baseball Rants : Clint Hurdle Is a Stupid, Stupid Man and Other Observations

Quote:

However, at the same time Hurdle pulled a double-switch, a feat I was impressed he could accomplish, putting Jamey Carroll at second base. Sounds fine, except that all Hurdle accomplished with the double-switch was to move the pitcher one spot down in the order and at the same time remove one of best batters ostensibly, Kaz Matsui, while ensuring that a man (Carroll) who batted .225 with a .617 OPS batted before the end of the game. The final inning featured at-bats by the catcher, Carroll, and Seth Smith, a player with eight career major-league at-bats prior to the postseason and no career home runs or RBI.

Got that? Papelbon is a hero because he mowed down (actually, he didn't "mow" anything down; he almost blew it by giving up a HR to the guy with the least power in either dugout) the immortal slugger's row of:

Yorvit
Jamey
Seth

Here's another question: Willy Taveras was activated for the NLCS because, obviously, Clint thinks Willy leading off an inning gives the club the best chance to win. So ... bottom 9, ace closer out there, I guess my "best chance to win" would involve Willy leading off? After all, there's a reason Yorvit never batted leadoff. Right?

No, not right.

Clint Hurdle did his damndest to make sure we got swept. Yes, I feel good about the season overall, and I even give Clint credit for getting us into the playoffs. But in the World Series, he was clearly outmanaged by Francona. The Red Sox have more talent on the field. They also had more brains in the dugout.

wolf213 · 10-30-2007, 12:42 AM

Hmmm, so people other then me read the toaster? Its actually a great site, I like reading Donohue a lot.

Hurdle was truly out classed in the World Series and it showed. In the end I think the thing that did him in was his in-ablilty to think outside the box. Why does fuentes automatically get the 8th? Would it have killed corpas to pitch a bit more when the game was in reach? Why not try giving Smith a start, in stead of turning to Sullivan or Spilly in games 3 and 4. He didn't make some of his dumbest moves, but he really didn't do anything I would classify as smart either.

BigRapidsJackass · 10-30-2007, 12:59 AM

Yup, Wolf, some of the Toaster authors do great stuff. I generally don't like Carminati's pieces since he's obsessed with his charts, but this one hits the nail on the head.

But I disagree about Hurdle not making some of his dumbest moves in the WS. That double switch was one for the ages.

DieHardRoxFan · 10-30-2007, 04:05 PM

Well, I have to give Hurdle props for making the W.S. but he seemed to abandon the urgency he showed in the playoffs and reverted to treating the games as regular season April type games. Obviously he has some qualities as a manager that are valuable but strategy isn't one of them. After 6 years I don't expect his methods will change much. He is what he is, an average or below manager. Expectations will be higher now, but we have to live with his shortcomings unless the team would completely tank.

10-29-2007, 01:25 AM	#1 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,110	Final "What on Earth was Hurdle Thinking" Thread It's over, and I'm actually o.k. with that. I got to see 2 World Series games in person, without having to travel thousands of miles. Yes, I'm bragging. It was fun. Red Sox fans were there, but these were Rockies' crowds. Not like a regular season game would've been. We got beat by a better club. I still don't get how Jon Lester has the best game of his career in the World Series, at Coors, after hardly pitching at all for several weeks and looking like crap in the playoffs. After tonight, I think Boston's "pitching dominance" was more about the Rockies' offensive ineptitude. Now onto what I don't understand: 1. Newman already mentioned how Hurdle went to Morales in Game 3 and actually had him leading off an inning. No one has explained why he went to Morales, and no can ever explain why Morales was allowed to bat. 2. Tonight: the most inexplicable double switch ever. I don't mean "Hurdle's most inexplicable double switch." I mean, "I've never seen a dumber double switch in my life." Tulo makes the last out in the bottom of the 7th. Fuentes in to the power chords of Metallica's "Enter the Gas Can." (Where's Corpas? Isn't he our best? Isn't that why he took the closer's role away from Fuentes? I guess we're saving him for the next game, you know, THE ONE SCHEDULED FOR APRIL 1, 2008.) Jamey Carroll in to play 2B in the double switch. Carroll slotted to bat 9th in the order, Fuentes penciled into Matsui's leadoff spot. Geez, that'll really benefit your team in the bottom of the 8th/9th. That's just what we want down a run in the 8h inning: a better bat out of the lineup in exchange for the weakest hitter on our bench. Bottom 8th: Atkins hits one out. Imagine that we get a big inning going with Spilly/Hawpe/Yorvit after the HR. Imagine you've got the bases loaded, down a run. What would you do? YOU'D PINCH HIT FOR JAMEY CARROLL ANYWAY! Instead, you don't mount a rally. You go to the 9th. Willy Taveras is sitting in the dugout. If anyone can get on against Papelbon, isn't it Willy? I mean, dropping a bunt on this guy, stealing 2nd on him, and hoping for a cheap hit to bring him home is about the best scenario I can come up with. But no, Yorvit hits. Then Carroll hits. Yeah, he gives it a ride. Nice, but a long out is an out. Then -- batting for Corpas, in the leadoff spot, where Matsui should still be: Seth Smith. Goodnight. See you in April, boys. Clint, your double switch gave up a better offensive player for a poorer one, all for the "advantage" of shifting the pitcher's spot exactly one batter forward, even though you still had Baker, Taveras, Smith, and Iannetta available off the bench. Idiotic. Really, please try to explain this double switch. It's so mind boggling that I won't be able to sleep until a figure out some reason -- ANY reason -- for doing it. So far the best I've come up with is this: Hurdle wanted to get Carroll in a game so Jamey can always say he played in a World Series. Seriously, I think that's what was going on here, just like I think he went to Morales so that Franklin wouldn't go into the offseason with a bad taste in his mouth. Nice guys finish last, or at least they get swept. 3. I saved the best for last. Heltonfan had wondered why anyone would start Fogg before Cook. After all, if the Series had gone 7, the Game 3 starter would be starting Game 7. And wouldn't you want that to be your second-best starter (Cook) and not your worst one? Well, it wasn't going 7, but I'll leave you with this thought: if Cook had started Game 3, we'd still be playing tomorrow. Last edited by BigRapidsJackass; 10-29-2007 at 01:32 AM.

10-29-2007, 11:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
GerryInCS Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 617	If Clint was doing it to get Jamey into WS game then he should've stuck him when we're getting blown out in game 1 or 3, not when the game was still in doubt last night. __________________ Americans aren't afraid of Mexicans, Americans are afraid that Mexicans are turning America into Mexico.

10-29-2007, 11:59 AM	#4 (permalink)
Roxpert Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 1,010	I would take Hurdle to task for the outcome of last night's game, not that it would have made any difference in the World Series outcome. Firstly, it was a show of stubbornnes that Clint brought in Fuentes in the 8th inning. Reminded me of how he stuck with Chacon as closer for almost all of 2004. Wasn't it clear by now that Fuentes wasn't right, having allowed 3 runs in each of his last two outings at Coors? It's "do or die" time, and Manny Corpas had only faced ONE batter in the World Series up to that point. It's clearly a no-brainer to bring Manny in for the top of the 8th and get two innings from him in order to give us the BEST chance to come back and win. The gopher ball Fuentes gave up to Kielty turned out to be the difference. Secondly, what was Hurdle doing in having Cook pitch to Varitek with one out and a runner on 2nd? Even Tim McCarver said (I watched the replay) that you have to pitch around him or give him the IBB with Lugo and Lester due to follow. It was a much more obvious IBB opportunity with the sinkerballer on the mound than walking Manny the night before to load the bases with nobody out to face Lowell. Lugo did follow with a single, but the pitch he got might have been different with runners on 1st and 2nd, and that RBI by Varitek was huge. Third, why would Hurdle play the infield in during the 1st inning of a scoreless game? Buck Martinez said on XM this morning that it "created an air of panic" in the Rockies dugout. It's also a microcosm of why we were swept........we PRESSED. Our hitters pressed in trying to hit homeruns and striking out too much all series long, and our manager even pressed by doing things like playing the infield in so early in the game. This particular decision did not affect the score, however, since Manny followed with a DP. Finally, Clint Hurdle could have made a better choice than Seth Smith to make the final out last night. Down by a run, he needed to go with the one guy who has the best chance to get a Paplebon fastball onto the fat part of the bat and hit it out to tie the score. That hitter would have been Baker. Smith has never homered in the majors, and Jeff Baker has a real shot at tying the score with one swing. Righty vs. righty? Forget that, as Jamey Carroll, another righty, took Ellsbury to the wall just before Smith struck out for the final out of the World Series. Again, while this was a poorly managed game by Clint, it didn't matter except to lower the chances of us having a Game 5 tonight. At least we who have tickets get to save $$$$ with the refund checks we'll be getting in 4 to 6 weeks! Last edited by Roxpert; 10-29-2007 at 12:03 PM.

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10-29-2007, 08:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
Newman Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Aurora Posts: 524	Well said, Jackass. Can't explain it. I think he was doing the Christian thing, like you suggested, and wanted to get Jamie in a World Series before he's released by the Rockies and get that bad taste out of Franklin's mouth. But what message does that send to the team? So much for Fogg being the Dragon slayer. I was so tired ofhearing that nickname. Cook looked sharp. No rust there. Can anyone explain that? He had a 90 game layoff and no rust.

10-29-2007, 01:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
rockieprogress Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: aurora Posts: 183	After Cook bunted for a hit, I would've thought that Hurdle would've used Tavares to do the same thing. As Roto said, a bunt, a stolen base, and a runner in scoring position. Maybe they were saving him to PR if someone got on... While I agree that the players were "pressing", it seems that the Manager was "pressing" just as much as the players were. I think he alluded to that in his post-game comments with his "biggest game in 33 years" comment.

10-29-2007, 02:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,110	I didn't even notice the infield-in thing. It doesn't surprise me, since Clint did the same type of thing in Game 3 when he intentionally walked Manny in (I think) the 3rd inning. It just seems like he had zero confidence in the ability of his club to come back.

10-30-2007, 12:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
wolf213 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Thornton Co Posts: 189	Hmmm, so people other then me read the toaster? Its actually a great site, I like reading Donohue a lot. Hurdle was truly out classed in the World Series and it showed. In the end I think the thing that did him in was his in-ablilty to think outside the box. Why does fuentes automatically get the 8th? Would it have killed corpas to pitch a bit more when the game was in reach? Why not try giving Smith a start, in stead of turning to Sullivan or Spilly in games 3 and 4. He didn't make some of his dumbest moves, but he really didn't do anything I would classify as smart either.

10-30-2007, 12:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
BigRapidsJackass Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,110	Yup, Wolf, some of the Toaster authors do great stuff. I generally don't like Carminati's pieces since he's obsessed with his charts, but this one hits the nail on the head. But I disagree about Hurdle not making some of his dumbest moves in the WS. That double switch was one for the ages.

10-30-2007, 04:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
DieHardRoxFan Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 153	Well, I have to give Hurdle props for making the W.S. but he seemed to abandon the urgency he showed in the playoffs and reverted to treating the games as regular season April type games. Obviously he has some qualities as a manager that are valuable but strategy isn't one of them. After 6 years I don't expect his methods will change much. He is what he is, an average or below manager. Expectations will be higher now, but we have to live with his shortcomings unless the team would completely tank.