rox at friars 9/21 to 9/23

[hiaspire]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

There seem to be some fans, Drew, who have more interest in criticizing OTHER fans than in criticizing a team's players, coaches, front office, or owners.

Why would there be more interest in CRITICIZING players and coaches now of all times? The improvement on the field for what the coaches have been given just isn't good enough? Some of the "intelligent and objective" fans can pick them to finish last and barely win more than 70 games or less possibly, but it is the coaches who should be criticized more for the team over-achieving beyond that expectation -- above just about all expectations for the team playing meaningful games late into September and taking down some of the league's best teams? Boo and criticize that?

At least you could have worded it differently in terms of more interest in fairly analyzing the players, coaches, etc. instead of the interest in criticizing them, but I think that criticism is the focus otherwise all to often.

Analysis of the situation by most objective observers is positive with this team's improvement. Why would someone have more interest in criticizing that? How about more interest in enjoying and recognizing the obvious improvements on the field? They need more fans coming to their defense in fairness when they are so highly criticized even in winning.

I don't see how anyone could critically examine the improvement here and find much to criticize recently with the coaches molding this young team into playoff contenders, as it is amongst the best rebuilding jobs in recent years and the envy of many organizations now. They are one of the best surprise stories in the game this year. Or if people do prefer to find the faults, there are certainly counter-points on the other side in terms of positive steps to raise. I could see criticizing the strategic planning or choices along the way, but it should be difficult to criticize the execution of the plan on the field that has seen such improvement overall. Hopefully more fans have more interest in recognizing that than criticizing it.

[indianadrew]

"There seem to be some fans, Drew, who have more interest in criticizing OTHER fans than in criticizing a team's players, coaches, front office, or owners"

and just exactly who would that be there roxpert? i see you doing alot of criticizing yourself. certainly you would not be speaking of yourself would you?

self edit: gee pert, are you talking about me? you know what, dude. you corrected wolf this morning for saying that the rockies had a legitimate shot at making the playoffs. before you go whining about what you percieve as somebody being critical of you, you should examine how you come off at times.

[Roxpert]

Umm, Drew, you cut and pasted something from another fan who has consistently been intent on criticizing the fans here (especially the ones who actually use data and gather information) instead of just sticking to comments regarding team issues. That's what I was referring to, not you.

Why would you even think I was referring to you? You cut and pasted his quote, and commented on it. So did I. Is that a crime?

[indianadrew]

Originally Posted by Roxpert

Umm, Drew, you cut and pasted something from another fan who has consistently been intent on criticizing the fans here (especially the ones who actually use data and gather information) instead of just sticking to comments regarding team issues. That's what I was referring to, not you.

Why would you even think I was referring to you? You cut and pasted his quote, and commented on it. So did I. Is that a crime?

i have made comments that have been critical of a generally negative tone, that may or may not exist on this board. i spend more time doing that than being critical of the team. that why i would think you were refering to me.

no man it's not a crime. not at all.

[Newman]

Ditto what Pert said.

Except for the part about criticizing OTHER fans. He started it! I don't like being Swift Boated by anyone (speaking for myself and Gerry).

Give the players the credit.

Caught a graphic about Hawpe, being number one in many categories for a #6 hitter in a NL lineup.

Can we win tonite with our best player on the bench with an oblique?

Let's see if Monfort signs Holliday to a long term contract. I'm not holding my breath. Go ahead, Charlie, make my day. I've got my nitro pills by the tv in case you do but I'd bet a good chunk of money that you won't. Does a leopard change his spots?

[jgisland]

i wish i could be a fly on the wall when boras laughs at the offer the monforts make holliday.

[hiaspire]

Originally Posted by jgisland

i wish i could be a fly on the wall when boras laughs at the offer the monforts make holliday.

Doesn't Boras have a policy (or at least strong personal interest and history) against contract extensions and wanting players to hit the open market? I don't know that the owners will be the ones driving those decisions even if they put up a Helton-like offer or greater. If Boras thinks a major market team is going to break the bank for him, they are going to push toward that you'd think and let the market decide his value with teams competing for him. The Rockies need to make a big offer, but I don't think they can be blamed if the agent/player have other interests and are more interested in testing their freedom.

It is great to see Helton FINALLY get some meaningful September games. He's really come up big for this team when they need him. He's waited a long time for this and is helping drive this late season push.

Helton WILL be more tradable this off-season than last year I think as he predictably rebounded from his odd health circumstances last year and showed his value to contending teams with the budget for him who can finally see him in those situations now. However, I think Helton will be even more intent on STAYING here as things are improving and he has the final say on that.

[HoyaRoxFan]

Ain't no two ways about it; these Rockies have heart. Kicking butt tonight.

Having said that, I was at the game watching the Phillies pull it out to beat the Nats, and couldn't help but have a sinking feeling we're just pulling the door open for them. If the Rockies didn't pull of a miracle, I really would rather see the Friars than the Phillies in the playoffs. Philly fans are the worst.

[GerryInCS]

Originally Posted by John Cocktoston

I actually logged in this morning to edit that. I realize it was over the top, but the fact that you tried to take a shot at Hurdle for bullpen management last night was just absurd.

Here's what I should have written: "Gerry, it's all hands on deck at this point. They had to win last night for tonight to even matter. Now they have to win tonight for tomorrow to matter. They can line up the bullpen if and when they get into the postseason."

Jerk? Maybe, yeah. Sorry.

Wrong? Absolutely not, Gerry.

I, like so many others, may not like the Cooler or DoD, but I believe I was the first (or one of the first) to say that I wouldn't be surprised if Clint got some MoY votes at the end of the season, especailly after the way this team has played since losing Cook/Hirsh/Lopez in the rotation. I still don't like the way Hurdle handles a bullpen and probably never will. The Rox have a good chance Sunday against an injured Maddux (sore back) and Francis pitching for the Rox. I figure the Rox can, not will, get 4 or 5 runs off of Maddux before they chase hom out of the game. Hopefully, Hurdle wont start Sullivan, Carroll or Baker and he puts the best lineup out there to battle Maddux.

[Newman]

I listen to a lot of sports talk radio, (ok, I'll wait for the arrogant eye rolling to stop), and the summary of the Holliday situation seemed to be this: Monfort doesn't want to hand out long term, 7 year contracts, anymore, after falling off the horse with Mike Hampton.

Again, how old is Holliday? 28? In 7 years he'd still be worthy and he's NOT a pitcher. Those people tend to get hurt more often.

I don't see where the majority of the blame does NOT fall on the ownership as usual. Someone is going to offer Matt 7 years. Why not us? Who's to say Matt wouldn't take a home town discount? Do you think he wants to move east to those two pressure cookers, Boston or NYY, just for the money?

7 in a row, even with Matt in the dugout last night, on the road. Maybe Charlie Monfort will wake up and have the courage to get back on the horse and try to be a major league owner again. We fans deserve better.

(I hope I'm allowed to repeat myself for emphasis, wolf, like the others do here. NOthing gets me going more than Bush's failed policies in Iraq, which apparently you see as well, and our bad ownership. What's wrong with a couple sentences of venting? And you even agree with me now!! I don't get you.)

[indianadrew]

Originally Posted by GerryInCS

I, like so many others, may not like the Cooler or DoD, but I believe I was the first (or one of the first) to say that I wouldn't be surprised if Clint got some MoY votes at the end of the season, especailly after the way this team has played since losing Cook/Hirsh/Lopez in the rotation. I still don't like the way Hurdle handles a bullpen and probably never will. The Rox have a good chance Sunday against an injured Maddux (sore back) and Francis pitching for the Rox. I figure the Rox can, not will, get 4 or 5 runs off of Maddux before they chase hom out of the game. Hopefully, Hurdle wont start Sullivan, Carroll or Baker and he puts the best lineup out there to battle Maddux.

if kazmat does not start he will probably start OQ. carroll starts mostly against southpaws. GO ROCKIES!

NOthing gets me going more than Bush's failed policies in Iraq

i have seen JC get you pretty riled up newman


RIP marcel marceau

[BigRapidsJackass]

Newman, the problem with your hero Sandy Clough is his obsession about this "will they sign Holliday" thing. Right now it is sounding like a poor excuse to rip the Rockies during what should be a time of good feeling.

Holliday is under our control for 2 more years. I'm sure they've approached him about a Chase Utley type deal, and I'm sure Boras hasn't wavered from his year-to-year approach and commitment to taking his players to free agency. I think Boras is doing Holliday a disservice here, but that's what's happening. I'm convinced Holliday won't be going anywhere until free agency unless the Rox are out of the playoff picture in July 2009, when a trade deadline deal could happen.

And if they let him walk in 2010? Well, that's not the point. This team shouldn't be about Matt Holliday. Maybe it won't be worth keeping him past 2009 if the salary scale for free agents of his type goes beyond what his expected productivity (something like $25 million per year over 8 years? I'd pass and put the money elsewhere.) The reall issue is this: will ownership allow payroll to expand to seize this window of opportunity now that the club has shown that it has the talent to really compete. If they keep Holliday at the expense of letting a lot of other talent go, what exactly would be gained?

So please: everyone shut up about Matt Holliday already. We've got him for 2 more years, and those should be the years in which we spend money to make a run for it.

[Roxpert]

Originally Posted by BigRapidsJackass

So please: everyone shut up about Matt Holliday already. We've got him for 2 more years, and those should be the years in which we spend money to make a run for it.

I tend to agree with most of what you wrote, Jackass. 2008 and 2009 is where the "rubber hits the road", or some such cliche like that. The owners had better commit the dollars to fill the holes, and go for it.

And, much as I've doubted it, I think the player to keep is Brian Fuentes. Corpas has had an OUTSTANDING season, but his lack of strikeouts against lefty hitters has me concerned. Not only do we need a lights-out bridge to Corpas, we also need someone who is dominant against lefthanded hitters, because in my view Corpas isn't.

Yes, Fuentes is aging a bit, and wasn't quite as dominant this year. He also seems like an injury risk with his back and oblique due to age and his funky delivery. However, he is an above-average set-up man, lethal versus lefties, and we should forget about that week from hell, which was really an aberation. Even if Fuentes makes for a below-average closer (I think he's average), he isn't being asked to do that anymore. Keep him.

If we trade Fuentes away because he costs too much for a set-up guy, that will tell you how much ownership is commited to spending to stay competitive. And it won't be a good message. Who are we going to get for the 8th inning to replace Fuentes? If they are of the Julio/Hawkins/Herges caliber, our bullpen could be in trouble.

I don't mind if they trade Fuentes as long as they replace him with as high quality a reliever, hopefully someone who dominates lefties. The best guy out there I know of who can do that is..........Fuentes.

[Heltonfan]

Maybe it won't be worth keeping him past 2009 if the salary scale for free agents of his type goes beyond what his expected productivity (something like $25 million per year over 8 years? I'd pass and put the money elsewhere.)

I can't believe I'm saying this, but... if 8/200 is prohibitive for us, we're in trouble. 8/200 would have been fair market value last winter for a player of Holliday's caliber. Standard yearly salary inflation would push that to 8/240 when he reaches free agency. If he's overpaid like Wells and Soriano were - and he may very well be - we could be looking at a $300 million deal.

Roxpert, your Fuentes comments are dead on. Although you might actually be understating the case; he's probably the third-best lefty reliever in all of baseball. If we're going to really go for it next year - and we should, of course - Fuentes would be an awfully tough piece to replace.

[bedir than average]

Helton, when you speak of fair market value and come to a figure that only a few players have acheived, what is your basis?

Pujols didn't get that much. Manny did and ARod.

Is Holliday really in that class of hitter?