Wade Boggs

[Zen653]

We've had this discussion before on other boards but I'm going to bring it up again here anyway. When are we going to honor Wade Boggs by retiring his number in right-field? He spent a majority of his career in Boston. He's in the Hall of Fame as a Red Sox player. He's still our all-time leader in several statistical categories. He never disrespected the city or the organization at any time that I can remember (he embarrassed himself with off-field issues but he behaved himself in uniform.) And he's easily one of the top five third basemen to ever play the game. Yes, he ended up with the Yankees but we actually dumped him, not the other way around.

With Roger Clemens choosing New York, I really feel that it's time we reclaimed Boggs and brought him back into the Red Sox family. We should hire him to be a spring training instructor, or something along those lines, just so that he can officially retire as a Red Sox and meet the requirements for number retirement. We've had a lot of great players through the years, and we've lost most of them to the Yankees. Can we at least keep Boggs as one of our own? I'm sure he'd be willing to identify himself as a Red Sox player. I think he would appreciate the gesture and enjoy being immortalized as a part of our lore. I also think it would be good for Red Sox Nation to expand its number of icons. It's not like we're reaching here by acknowledging one of the best infielders to ever play the game.

[cjelephant]

That's another tough one. Free agency has kind of made this difficult. Boggs was fantastic - and one of my favorite players.

But that whole Yankee thing - it IS an issue for me. Any other team maybe - but the NYY.

I realize that may not sound fair, but I can't help it.

Same goes for Damon - I can't stand listening to Damon on ESPN tonight.

[AutomatedTeller]

The Sox should, yes. Boggs's number should be retired.

[Zen653]

Same goes for Damon - I can't stand listening to Damon on ESPN tonight.

Damon isn't even in the same ballpark as Boggs when it comes to talent. Yes, Damon is a pretty good player. He's a borderline All-Star who has had some big moments. But Wade Boggs is a Hall of Famer. He's one of the best third baseman in the history of the game. He gave us 11 spectacular seasons, with a Ted Williams-type batting average and some underrated defense at the hot corner. He cared about this team too. I'm too young to remember watching this live but I'll never forget the footage of him crying in the dugout after the 1986 World Series.

I've never understood the hatred of Wade Boggs. Some people call him selfish because he seemed more concerned with his batting average than the rest of his game but Ted Williams was like that too and took it to the extreme (at least Boggs worked hard on his defense.) I'm not saying Boggs is Ted Williams but he would easily be our third best player among retired numbers. Boggs was better than Cronin, Doerr and Fisk. He'd only rank behind Ted Williams and Carl Yastrezmski. Doesn't that say something about Boggs' place in franchise history?

Others complain about the image of Boggs riding a horse in Yankee Stadium after the 1996 World Series. So what? He would have stayed in Boston if we wanted him. We didn't even offer him arbitration! Boggs only spent five years in New York and he did not even retire as a Yankee (he spent a couple years in Tampa Bay.)

I don't hear much about Boggs in connection to the Yankees franchise. I think he's definitely there for the taking if we want to bring him back as our own. I bet if we offered to retire his number in return for him becoming a lifelong Red Sox ambassador, he would gladly accept.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think the reason people didn't like Boggs was:

A) He didn't hit for power and drew criticism for that most of his career. Why this happens is strange to me - man was a great talent who didn't do something and the thing that was lacking became the focus.
B) He paid attention to stats, which upset the writers who thought that it was best if ball players just played the game and didn't care about what they are doing.
C) He had his sexual escapades.

[cjelephant]

I agree - Damon is nowhere near the player Boggs was.

I only meant that when someone plays for the Sox - to go to the Yankees after that - for me, that means they really are not interested in having the Red Sox honor them in the future.

For example - Mike Myers will never have his number retired either.

So, while I always was a big Boggs fan - he definitely screwed himself when he went to NYY. In fact, I think the Sox should announce that as a rule - if you go to the yankees - you give up any chance of having your number retired.

Go to Kansas Cityor Detroit or Philly - but no NYY.

If you notice - there are never any Yankees that go to Boston. (Rick Cerone? Mike Torrez - yikes!)

[AutomatedTeller]

Bernie almost came to the Sox, but George overpaid for him.

[Drury77]

I was a big Boggs fan, and loved watching him play but like cjelephant when he went to the Yankees, I hard a hard time dealing with it.

As for retiring Boggs number, I'm not sure. I think they should honor him, but I'm not sure he was such a player that warrants his # retirement. All this talk takes me to if you retire Boggs, don't you have retire Rice's # too. I mean, unless they are in the class of Teddy and such, you could end up with a lot of retired #'s. I don't want to see the Bruins catastrophy of retiring #'s come to the BoSox.

Not sure If I'm making my point but thats my take

[Zen653]

As for retiring Boggs number, I'm not sure. I think they should honor him, but I'm not sure he was such a player that warrants his # retirement. All this talk takes me to if you retire Boggs, don't you have retire Rice's # too. I mean, unless they are in the class of Teddy and such, you could end up with a lot of retired #'s.

I don't think that would be a problem if you keep the current rules in place for retiring a number. The Red Sox require (a) that the player spends at least 10 years in Boston, (b) that the player enters the National Baseball Hall of Fame as a Red Sox player, and (c) that the player finishes his career in Boston.

While we can fudge around with the last requirement by hiring former players to serve as coaches or consultants, I think there should be no way to circumvent the first two requirements. And when you look at it that way, only one player whose number has not yet been retired fits that criteria - Wade Boggs. Boggs spent at least 10 years in Boston (11 to be exact) and he's in Coopsterstown as a Red Sox player. The only part that's missing is retiring as a Red Sox and that can be taken care of by signing him on as a consultant/instructor.

Jim Rice meets the requirement of 10 years in Boston. He also meets the requirement of finishing his career in Boston. (He's never been a part of any other franchise.) But he's missing the Cooperstown requirement.

For similar reasons, Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz - as much as I love them - should not have their numbers retired by the team either.

Pedro will likely be in the Hall of Fame as a Red Sox player, and maybe he'll come back into the Red Sox family upon retiring as a player. But he'll fall short on the 10 year service time requirement.

Same problem with Manny. He'll likely be in the Hall of Fame as a Red Sox player, but I don't think he'll make it to 10 years with the team. There's probably zero chance of the Red Sox exercising their 9th and 10th year options on him. More likely, they'll cut ties the moment he becomes a free agent (they've been trying to dump him for years.)

Then there's Ortiz. While he's had some magical moments as a member of the Red Sox, and while I'm optimistic that he will spend the rest of his career in Boston, I don't think he'll make it into the Hall of Fame. So he won't meet the requirements either.

As for Schilling, he might make it into Cooperstown, but it won't be as a member of the Red Sox, nor will he have spent 10 years with the team.

In short, only Boggs meets the two key requirements. As long as you keep the standards that high, there's no slippery slope argument for letting Boggs in while excluding others. We're not changing any of the rules, we're going by the criteria that the team has always used.

As I suggested earlier, Boggs is already more talented than three of the players whose numbers we've already retired. He was better than Doerr, Cronin and Fisk.

[AutomatedTeller]

I wouldn't be unhappy if Rice or Evans were retired. Obviously, IF Rice makes the Hall, the Sox will retire his number. Evans won't make the hall, so he won't go (and I don't think he will qualify on the ending career criterion). btw - who was the last significant homegrown player to come up with the sox and end his career with them? I think it was Greenwell. Tek will, of course.

Manny - I have no idea what the Sox will do. if he'll resign for $15M, the Sox will bring him back. If it takes $20M, they won't. In between, i dunno.

[cjelephant]

By the way - I can't go along with Boggs being better than Fisk. Although Boggs was an incredible hitter - Fisk is arguably the best AL catcher in how long? 45 years?

[Drury77]

Yea I don't think any catcher compares to Fisk Period.

Thanks for the lesson Zen on the Sox requirements. I wasn't really aware of them. You learn something new everyday

[AutomatedTeller]

Hmm.

IRod? Maybe not as good a hitter, better on D?
Posada? Better hitter, not as good on defense, never, ever gets hurts.

Fisk had 2226 games at C, IRod is at 1960 and still going.
Posada has 1248, so has a long ways to go.

There is a pretty good chance that IRod ends up the superior catcher.

[Zen653]

Manny - I have no idea what the Sox will do. if he'll resign for $15M, the Sox will bring him back. If it takes $20M, they won't. In between, i dunno.

Aside from Boggs, and (gulp) Clemens, Ramirez is probably the only player with a good chance of seeing his number retired by the team. His contract runs out after 2008, which would be his eighth season in Boston. That leaves him just two years short of the magic ten. Now the Red Sox do have 9th and 10th option years for $20 million, and maybe they'd like the idea of going year to year with him in 2009 and 2010. I just figure that they'll want to invest that $20 million elsewhere. There's been so much bad blood between Ramirez and management that I can't imagine the Red Sox voluntarily extending his tenure with the team. I also don't see Ramirez electing to stay here if the Red Sox decline his option for 2009. He's wanted to go out west for awhile now, and the Angels would probably be a good fit for him. Maybe they'd sign him for 4 years/$60 million.

Our best chance of seeing Manny's #24 up on the rightfield wall is to continue overpaying him in 2009 and 2010, as a trade-off for losing him to a competitor, or being pushed into making a commitment beyond the two option years. Then we'd need him to retire after 2010 so that he's ending his career as a Red Sox player after 10 seasons of play. In 2015, he'd then be inducted into the Hall of Fame and he'd meet all the team's requirements. I hope it works out this way - I just don't expect it to be the case.

With Pedro, I have a strong feeling that the Red Sox will bring him back here in some capacity after his contract runs out with the Mets. Maybe he'd return on a one year deal as a 4th/5th starter, and then spend two years as a spring training instructor so that he reaches the requisite 10. I know that's a bit of a stretch but I think Red Sox fans have a greater affinity for Martinez than for Clemens.