2007 O's P.O.T.Y. thread

DiamondDave · 07-23-2007, 10:14 AM

Well

It is about that time of the year where we can start discussion of the POTY for the O's. We have but a few candidates, who could be considered truly being good this year, but I think that those few are truly having good years and not just good years for being on the O's

Brian Roberts - .312, 6 HR, 5th in the ML with 29 SB
Nick Markakis - .291, 10 HR, 59 RBI, 12 SB, 0 Errors, 8 OF Assists
Jeremy Guthrie - 6-3, 2.88 ERA, .216 BAA
Erik Bedard - 9-4, 3.12 ERA, .211 BAA, 1st in ML with 167 K's

Who do you think the front runner is right now, and who do you think the POTY will be at the end of the season?

feathered friend · 07-23-2007, 10:19 AM

Player of the year?

DiamondDave · 07-23-2007, 10:24 AM

unreal654 · 07-23-2007, 10:27 AM

My vote goes to Jeremy Guthrie. What a comeback he has made after the Indians gave up on him. Any chance we can have him back?

feathered friend · 07-23-2007, 10:41 AM

"....truly having good years and not just good years for being on the O's."

A good year is a good year.... and the players you mentioned are certainly each having a good year.

But in keeping with the idea that you're talking about "player of the year", and not necessarily "most valuable player", I'd have to decide that honor on the basis of who has had the most significantly positive impact on the team rather than who necessarily put up the biggest numbers.

If I were to make that choice at this point, I would without hesitation choose Kevin Millar. I think he talks the talk and walks the walk, and his influence results in everyone else playing better. I also think that if you were to ask the four players you listed, they would all concur.

DiamondDave · 07-23-2007, 11:40 AM

A 'good' year is certainly a good year... but in many cases, on a poor team, there are times where a mediocre year can be construed as a good year....

I have seen nothing all that positive from Milar except being the 'guy in the dugout' who gives support and tries... but that is what they are supposed to do... I have really seen nothing in his game play that puts him in a POTY spotlight... he's a 36 year old guy with average stats, average contribution, that has stepped up to be a leaning post for other players on this team... exactly what a vet is supposed to do

feathered friend · 07-23-2007, 10:43 PM

I totally disagree with your first statement, but that's what makes the world go 'round.

Stats don't tell the whole story when you're talking "player of the year". Average stats are all you need when you supply the intangibles that Millar does. He picks his spots in which to add to those stats.

If a "vet" is supposed to do all these things, then God bless Millar for doing them, because in 3-plus years, "vet" Miguel Tejada certainly hasn't.

"Vet" Rafael Palmeiro certainly didn't.... and neither did "vet" Javy Lopez.
"Vet" Jeff Conine was supposed to, but did not.
"Vets" Rodrigo Lopez didn't.... and "vet" Steve Trachsel doesn't now.

Even "vet" Cal Ripken... the soon-to-be Hall-of-Famer couldn't do it.
It simply was not a part of his makeup

People like to point out the Oriole's 9 straight losing seasons.
Well, there were some pretty mediocre Oriole years with the Ironman at shortstop or third base every single game.
And part of the reason for that long line of mediocrity was because Cal never made a single team or teammate any better by his sheer nature. He put up numbers. And he played every day. But the only times he ever made it to the post-season were when he was surrounded by other great players.

Roberts, Markakis, Bedard, and Guthrie don't make everyone around them better..... it's not part of any of their respective games yet and may never be, as it was not ever Ripken's.

It is, however, a big part of Millar's game..... which is what makes him a very big part of this Oriole team.... a bigness which transcends his numbers.

The time is always right for a good solid young player to blossom in the big leagues. Bedard, Guthrie, Roberts, or Markakis could come along at any time under different names and make no more or no less of a splash.

But for a guy like Kevin Millar, all the conditions must be right.

Right now, they seem to be just right.... and if the Orioles should make a solid run this second half, Kevin Millar will be found to be the indispensible ingredient in that run..... the one guy without whom it would not have happened..... the Oriole player of the year.

DiamondDave · 07-25-2007, 06:49 AM

You are talking the semantics of value.... not POTY performance.... and while I can agree that some lesser performing player can have more value than their stats... I do not see where Milar is the 'above and beyond' type that you are trying to portray him to be.....

Of course some players will say the right things about their veteran teammates who do a couple of things, give a little advise, etc... but most of that is just talk.... it is the right thing to say to the camera, newspaper reporter, or the microphone....

The O's won't be making any type of run towards any playoff spot, and probably not even towards a winning season... if this team hits 78 wins, I would be utterly shocked to the point of saying this year was a huge success.... and Milar will have his 14 HR, .270 BA, and 68 RBI or similar to what he has always done.... certainly not any POTY performance

feathered friend · 07-25-2007, 01:24 PM

My first question to you in this thread was if POTY meant "player of the year".
You answered affirmatively.

In fact, this thread is about choosing the prospective (because the season is only barely past half over) "player of the year" for the Baltimore Orioles.

This is not the same thing as a Most Valuable Player.
A Most Valuable Player 's value transcends his team. That's why I made sure of what you meant by saying that a "good year is a good year", with which you agreed.

A Most Valuable Player (like former MVP's Cal Ripken, Boog Powell, Frank and Brooks Robinson) should stand a good chance of being not only an MVP of his team, but of his league as well.

A Player of the Year is more oriented towards a special player in a special situation.

A Player of the Year should defy circumstances in some way while becoming indespensible to his team.

That's exactly what Kevin Millar did for the Championship Boston Red Sox, and that's exactly what he's done so far this season for the Orioles.

You could have taken away any one of several Boston players that year who put up more "productive" numbers than Millar did, and they likely would have still finished the season the way they did.

This season, fate has indeed taken away Miguel Tejada, Melvin Mora, and Ramon Hernandez (arguably their three most productive hitters from last season) for extended periods of time.... plus Jay Payton, Adam Loewen, Jaret Wright, Steve Trachsel, and now possibly Chris Ray.

Yet the Orioles are now playing the best baseball they've played in 10 years. I believe if they'd have lost Millar, things would be very different right now.

"The O's won't be making any type of run towards any playoff spot, and probably not even towards a winning season... if this team hits 78 wins, I would be utterly shocked to the point of saying this year was a huge success..."

Why, thank-you, Nostradamus. I think they have as good of a chance as any one of the other 3 teams in their division which currently trail Boston. And they have many games remaining with all 4 division rivals.
The returns of Tejada and Mora will help the overall team numbers which, if you look only at their record in one-run games, you should understand how that could reverse that record the second half.

"Of course some players will say the right things about their veteran teammates who do a couple of things, give a little advise, etc... but most of that is just talk.... it is the right thing to say to the camera, newspaper reporter, or the microphone...."

I don't think so. Especially the players on this Oriole team. If that was indeed the case, then Sam Perlozzo would still be the manager.

I think if they have something good to say, they say it..... but if they don't, then they usually remain silent.... like they did when frequently questioned about Sam.

DiamondDave · 07-25-2007, 01:33 PM

FF

That is why on radio shows and other media... they get into the MVP .vs POTY when the MVP award comes out... VALUE can be on a losing team, or brought by leadership... but the way that MVP has been handled, it is generally done like a POTY, which is the best statistical production.... I purposely went with POTY because in that way we base it in measurable performance... not value which is subjective

While I appreciate Rah-Rah-Rah attitude... there is no basis, whatsoever, to think that this team (with or without Tejada or Mora or Loewen, or whomever else) is going to be any sort of playoff contender... while the SP staff has improved the 2nd most in the ML compared to last season, we are still a pretty bad team overall with some sparks of talent in between.... we won't see the sunny side of .500, let alone even come close to the 92 or so wins it would take to contend for any playoff spot in the AL

And as for Millar... I whole heartedly believe that if we lost him, he would be easily replaced by any number of average veteran players in this league

unreal654 · 07-25-2007, 01:43 PM

I don't understand why these threads always turn into a fued about the difference between POTY and MVP. How about we discuss who's had the best season for the team? I say Jeremy Guthrie because of his consistancy. This is a pitcher that can come out every 5th game and give the team a great chance of winning.

feathered friend · 07-25-2007, 01:56 PM

First of all, this isn't a feud. Maybe you'd prefer that everytime someone posts an opinion, all the other members, instead of getting to voice their thoughts, just had a choice of two boxes to check, labeled "agree" and "disagree".

This is indeed an argument..... but I don't feel anyone has lost any respect for anyone else. Therefore it is not a feud.

"I say Jeremy Guthrie because of his consistancy."

Unreal, I'd say that at this point, Guthrie is a very viable candidate for Oriole POTY because he's overcome the odds by making the team to begin with..... stuck with the team by virtue of his performances out of the bullpen, and now has established himself as a permanent part of the starting rotation.

That's a good choice, too.

I think this will pan out by the end of the season and the choice may be more clear then.

DiamondDave · 07-25-2007, 02:49 PM

Yeah unreal

There is no disrespect or anything....

I simply take value as being subjective, and POTY being an overall measurable contribution type of thing....

As for the rest.... FF is more hopeful than I am... he's going on a lot of feeling.... where I look at the same talent and same setup and I see no reason why this team can be considered a contender, though I root for them to win every game

DiamondDave · 08-14-2007, 11:52 AM

Looks more and more that Bedard is the front runner for both MVP and POTY for our team.... he is continuing to have a great year and is even a dark horse in the Cy Young race

07-23-2007, 10:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	2007 O's P.O.T.Y. thread Well It is about that time of the year where we can start discussion of the POTY for the O's. We have but a few candidates, who could be considered truly being good this year, but I think that those few are truly having good years and not just good years for being on the O's Brian Roberts - .312, 6 HR, 5th in the ML with 29 SB Nick Markakis - .291, 10 HR, 59 RBI, 12 SB, 0 Errors, 8 OF Assists Jeremy Guthrie - 6-3, 2.88 ERA, .216 BAA Erik Bedard - 9-4, 3.12 ERA, .211 BAA, 1st in ML with 167 K's Who do you think the front runner is right now, and who do you think the POTY will be at the end of the season? __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions. Last edited by DiamondDave; 07-23-2007 at 10:17 AM.

07-23-2007, 10:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	yep __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.

07-23-2007, 11:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	A 'good' year is certainly a good year... but in many cases, on a poor team, there are times where a mediocre year can be construed as a good year.... I have seen nothing all that positive from Milar except being the 'guy in the dugout' who gives support and tries... but that is what they are supposed to do... I have really seen nothing in his game play that puts him in a POTY spotlight... he's a 36 year old guy with average stats, average contribution, that has stepped up to be a leaning post for other players on this team... exactly what a vet is supposed to do __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.

07-23-2007, 10:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
feathered friend Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orange County, Florida Posts: 56	I totally disagree with your first statement, but that's what makes the world go 'round. Stats don't tell the whole story when you're talking "player of the year". Average stats are all you need when you supply the intangibles that Millar does. He picks his spots in which to add to those stats. If a "vet" is supposed to do all these things, then God bless Millar for doing them, because in 3-plus years, "vet" Miguel Tejada certainly hasn't. "Vet" Rafael Palmeiro certainly didn't.... and neither did "vet" Javy Lopez. "Vet" Jeff Conine was supposed to, but did not. "Vets" Rodrigo Lopez didn't.... and "vet" Steve Trachsel doesn't now. Even "vet" Cal Ripken... the soon-to-be Hall-of-Famer couldn't do it. It simply was not a part of his makeup People like to point out the Oriole's 9 straight losing seasons. Well, there were some pretty mediocre Oriole years with the Ironman at shortstop or third base every single game. And part of the reason for that long line of mediocrity was because Cal never made a single team or teammate any better by his sheer nature. He put up numbers. And he played every day. But the only times he ever made it to the post-season were when he was surrounded by other great players. Roberts, Markakis, Bedard, and Guthrie don't make everyone around them better..... it's not part of any of their respective games yet and may never be, as it was not ever Ripken's. It is, however, a big part of Millar's game..... which is what makes him a very big part of this Oriole team.... a bigness which transcends his numbers. The time is always right for a good solid young player to blossom in the big leagues. Bedard, Guthrie, Roberts, or Markakis could come along at any time under different names and make no more or no less of a splash. But for a guy like Kevin Millar, all the conditions must be right. Right now, they seem to be just right.... and if the Orioles should make a solid run this second half, Kevin Millar will be found to be the indispensible ingredient in that run..... the one guy without whom it would not have happened..... the Oriole player of the year. Last edited by feathered friend; 07-24-2007 at 03:30 AM.

07-25-2007, 06:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	You are talking the semantics of value.... not POTY performance.... and while I can agree that some lesser performing player can have more value than their stats... I do not see where Milar is the 'above and beyond' type that you are trying to portray him to be..... Of course some players will say the right things about their veteran teammates who do a couple of things, give a little advise, etc... but most of that is just talk.... it is the right thing to say to the camera, newspaper reporter, or the microphone.... The O's won't be making any type of run towards any playoff spot, and probably not even towards a winning season... if this team hits 78 wins, I would be utterly shocked to the point of saying this year was a huge success.... and Milar will have his 14 HR, .270 BA, and 68 RBI or similar to what he has always done.... certainly not any POTY performance __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.

07-23-2007, 10:19 AM	#2 (permalink)
feathered friend Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orange County, Florida Posts: 56	Player of the year?

07-23-2007, 10:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
unreal654 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 327	My vote goes to Jeremy Guthrie. What a comeback he has made after the Indians gave up on him. Any chance we can have him back?

07-23-2007, 10:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
feathered friend Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orange County, Florida Posts: 56	"....truly having good years and not just good years for being on the O's." A good year is a good year.... and the players you mentioned are certainly each having a good year. But in keeping with the idea that you're talking about "player of the year", and not necessarily "most valuable player", I'd have to decide that honor on the basis of who has had the most significantly positive impact on the team rather than who necessarily put up the biggest numbers. If I were to make that choice at this point, I would without hesitation choose Kevin Millar. I think he talks the talk and walks the walk, and his influence results in everyone else playing better. I also think that if you were to ask the four players you listed, they would all concur.

07-25-2007, 01:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
feathered friend Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orange County, Florida Posts: 56	My first question to you in this thread was if POTY meant "player of the year". You answered affirmatively. In fact, this thread is about choosing the prospective (because the season is only barely past half over) "player of the year" for the Baltimore Orioles. This is not the same thing as a Most Valuable Player. A Most Valuable Player 's value transcends his team. That's why I made sure of what you meant by saying that a "good year is a good year", with which you agreed. A Most Valuable Player (like former MVP's Cal Ripken, Boog Powell, Frank and Brooks Robinson) should stand a good chance of being not only an MVP of his team, but of his league as well. A Player of the Year is more oriented towards a special player in a special situation. A Player of the Year should defy circumstances in some way while becoming indespensible to his team. That's exactly what Kevin Millar did for the Championship Boston Red Sox, and that's exactly what he's done so far this season for the Orioles. You could have taken away any one of several Boston players that year who put up more "productive" numbers than Millar did, and they likely would have still finished the season the way they did. This season, fate has indeed taken away Miguel Tejada, Melvin Mora, and Ramon Hernandez (arguably their three most productive hitters from last season) for extended periods of time.... plus Jay Payton, Adam Loewen, Jaret Wright, Steve Trachsel, and now possibly Chris Ray. Yet the Orioles are now playing the best baseball they've played in 10 years. I believe if they'd have lost Millar, things would be very different right now. "The O's won't be making any type of run towards any playoff spot, and probably not even towards a winning season... if this team hits 78 wins, I would be utterly shocked to the point of saying this year was a huge success..." Why, thank-you, Nostradamus. I think they have as good of a chance as any one of the other 3 teams in their division which currently trail Boston. And they have many games remaining with all 4 division rivals. The returns of Tejada and Mora will help the overall team numbers which, if you look only at their record in one-run games, you should understand how that could reverse that record the second half. "Of course some players will say the right things about their veteran teammates who do a couple of things, give a little advise, etc... but most of that is just talk.... it is the right thing to say to the camera, newspaper reporter, or the microphone...." I don't think so. Especially the players on this Oriole team. If that was indeed the case, then Sam Perlozzo would still be the manager. I think if they have something good to say, they say it..... but if they don't, then they usually remain silent.... like they did when frequently questioned about Sam.

07-25-2007, 01:33 PM	#10 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	FF That is why on radio shows and other media... they get into the MVP .vs POTY when the MVP award comes out... VALUE can be on a losing team, or brought by leadership... but the way that MVP has been handled, it is generally done like a POTY, which is the best statistical production.... I purposely went with POTY because in that way we base it in measurable performance... not value which is subjective While I appreciate Rah-Rah-Rah attitude... there is no basis, whatsoever, to think that this team (with or without Tejada or Mora or Loewen, or whomever else) is going to be any sort of playoff contender... while the SP staff has improved the 2nd most in the ML compared to last season, we are still a pretty bad team overall with some sparks of talent in between.... we won't see the sunny side of .500, let alone even come close to the 92 or so wins it would take to contend for any playoff spot in the AL And as for Millar... I whole heartedly believe that if we lost him, he would be easily replaced by any number of average veteran players in this league __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.

07-25-2007, 01:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
unreal654 Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 327	I don't understand why these threads always turn into a fued about the difference between POTY and MVP. How about we discuss who's had the best season for the team? I say Jeremy Guthrie because of his consistancy. This is a pitcher that can come out every 5th game and give the team a great chance of winning.

07-25-2007, 01:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
feathered friend Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Orange County, Florida Posts: 56	First of all, this isn't a feud. Maybe you'd prefer that everytime someone posts an opinion, all the other members, instead of getting to voice their thoughts, just had a choice of two boxes to check, labeled "agree" and "disagree". This is indeed an argument..... but I don't feel anyone has lost any respect for anyone else. Therefore it is not a feud. "I say Jeremy Guthrie because of his consistancy." Unreal, I'd say that at this point, Guthrie is a very viable candidate for Oriole POTY because he's overcome the odds by making the team to begin with..... stuck with the team by virtue of his performances out of the bullpen, and now has established himself as a permanent part of the starting rotation. That's a good choice, too. I think this will pan out by the end of the season and the choice may be more clear then.

07-25-2007, 02:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	Yeah unreal There is no disrespect or anything.... I simply take value as being subjective, and POTY being an overall measurable contribution type of thing.... As for the rest.... FF is more hopeful than I am... he's going on a lot of feeling.... where I look at the same talent and same setup and I see no reason why this team can be considered a contender, though I root for them to win every game __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.

08-14-2007, 11:52 AM	#14 (permalink)
DiamondDave Hall of Famer Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: MD, on the Potomac River Posts: 5,390	Looks more and more that Bedard is the front runner for both MVP and POTY for our team.... he is continuing to have a great year and is even a dark horse in the Cy Young race __________________ Reagan in 08... Even though he's dead, he's the better choice! Superdelegates - Because even the Democratic party knows it's base is too stupid to make really important decisions.