Little Something for the Older Purists

NadoBrave · May 29th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Saw this today & thought I'd share. Simpler times to be sure.

Snowman · May 29th, 2008, 11:44 AM

Yeah, this has been around a while. I'm a big 19th c. guy myself, so I've been meaning to make it to a game for years now. My preference would be to get up to CT and go to a Middletown game. I've always found the history of the original Mansfields and their lone (partial) season in the NA to be one of the more amusing things in the history of the game.

jpx7 · May 29th, 2008, 12:36 PM

"Some of the peculiarities of the vintage game might be hard for a modern audience to accept. Among them, a ball caught after a bounce is considered an out (or a "hand" in the parlance of the time) and an RBI doesn't always count as a positive play."

Can one of you historians explain these rule "peculiarities" to me?

Snowman · May 29th, 2008, 02:36 PM

There's no real explanation for them, other than the fact that baseball simply evolved into the game we know today and that's one of the things that changed. It should be noted that only a ball caught after one single bounce was an out, not just any ball that bounced. Walks at various times were comprised of four, five, and eight balls. Strikeouts were for a time four strikes rather than three. Initially, the pitcher stood on flat ground, threw the ball underhanded and completely stiff-armed, and took a walking start towards the batter to do so (think bowling for that portion of it). The batter was able to tell the pitcher whether he wanted the pitch high or low, and it was a ball if the pitcher did not hit that mark. There were no fences or stands, and the crowd just stood around the field to watch. Not everyone who attended paid, as without fences there was no way to keep people from just walking up. If you threw a fielded ball at a runner and hit him, he was out. There were almost never any in-game substitutions except in cases of injury, because you could not change a player from your original nine unless the other team's manager agreed to allow you to do so. And on, and on, and on.

The error rates were astonishing, as well. A good fielder could have an .850 fielding percentage, and had they existed been a Gold Glover.

Also, 1B and 3B (especially 3B) were defensive positions, and 2B and SS were offensive positions.

Rules changes were very nearly a yearly occurrence. Eventually, we came to what we now see in between the lines.

Snowman · May 29th, 2008, 02:42 PM

By the way, for anyone who is interested in the period and would like to learn more (and who has a few $ to spare), I wholeheartedly recommended the books by Marshall D. Wright on the period. He has one on the 19th c. major league clubs, and several more that each cover one of the major minor leagues from the period. They're about fifty bucks apiece, though.

May 29th, 2008, 11:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
NadoBrave Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fantasy Island Posts: 807	Little Something for the Older Purists Saw this today & thought I'd share. Simpler times to be sure. __________________ *It's a pity ignorance isn't painful!*

May 29th, 2008, 11:44 AM	#2 (permalink)
Snowman Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Topsail Beach, NC Posts: 1,335	Yeah, this has been around a while. I'm a big 19th c. guy myself, so I've been meaning to make it to a game for years now. My preference would be to get up to CT and go to a Middletown game. I've always found the history of the original Mansfields and their lone (partial) season in the NA to be one of the more amusing things in the history of the game. __________________ That corpse you planted last year in your garden, Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year? Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.

May 29th, 2008, 02:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
Snowman Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Topsail Beach, NC Posts: 1,335	There's no real explanation for them, other than the fact that baseball simply evolved into the game we know today and that's one of the things that changed. It should be noted that only a ball caught after one single bounce was an out, not just any ball that bounced. Walks at various times were comprised of four, five, and eight balls. Strikeouts were for a time four strikes rather than three. Initially, the pitcher stood on flat ground, threw the ball underhanded and completely stiff-armed, and took a walking start towards the batter to do so (think bowling for that portion of it). The batter was able to tell the pitcher whether he wanted the pitch high or low, and it was a ball if the pitcher did not hit that mark. There were no fences or stands, and the crowd just stood around the field to watch. Not everyone who attended paid, as without fences there was no way to keep people from just walking up. If you threw a fielded ball at a runner and hit him, he was out. There were almost never any in-game substitutions except in cases of injury, because you could not change a player from your original nine unless the other team's manager agreed to allow you to do so. And on, and on, and on. The error rates were astonishing, as well. A good fielder could have an .850 fielding percentage, and had they existed been a Gold Glover. Also, 1B and 3B (especially 3B) were defensive positions, and 2B and SS were offensive positions. Rules changes were very nearly a yearly occurrence. Eventually, we came to what we now see in between the lines. __________________ That corpse you planted last year in your garden, Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year? Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college. Last edited by Snowman; May 29th, 2008 at 02:44 PM.

May 29th, 2008, 02:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
Snowman Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: North Topsail Beach, NC Posts: 1,335	By the way, for anyone who is interested in the period and would like to learn more (and who has a few $ to spare), I wholeheartedly recommended the books by Marshall D. Wright on the period. He has one on the 19th c. major league clubs, and several more that each cover one of the major minor leagues from the period. They're about fifty bucks apiece, though. __________________ That corpse you planted last year in your garden, Has it begun to sprout? Will it bloom this year? Or has the sudden frost disturbed its bed? If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.

May 29th, 2008, 12:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
jpx7 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 568	"Some of the peculiarities of the vintage game might be hard for a modern audience to accept. Among them, a ball caught after a bounce is considered an out (or a "hand" in the parlance of the time) and an RBI doesn't always count as a positive play." Can one of you historians explain these rule "peculiarities" to me?