[Newman]

[quote=TheIncredibleRox;216512]Newman,


The problems you describe above exists not because of free market forces, they exist because of the opposite: government controls.

Incredible, you need to mix in a few psychology courses along with some history courses. Human nature. Greed. The free market IS the problem and without government controls we would be no better than Communist China with it's pollution and salmonella outbreaks, bad water, and bad air, and lead painted cheap toys that they export to Walmart America for a profit.

The government manipulates those markets intensely, distorting the free market. They control where and when and how oil companies are allowed to get it out of the ground and give it to you. They subsidize the oil companies (through grants or tax breaks) to do research or produce things that you (the consumer) have no use for (or, more precisely, less of a use for then you would pay for those products/services). They tax the living hell out of it; between Federal and State taxes, did you know you're paying about 4-5x more to the government than to any oil companies profit margin? They regulate who can enter the market. They subsidize substitutes, like ethanol and soy, which artificially drive up the price of your bread and other goods.

History, Incredible. Read about the robber barons. Read about Republican Teddy Roosevelt, who was the trust buster, because you cannot trust huge corporations to be moral. What caused the Great Depression of 1929? Greed. Buying on margin. Lack of government controls on Wall STreet, similar to what's happening now.

These are not problems that arose from the free market, they are problems that arose because of breaches in the free market.

Trust the free market? Who is that good for? Wealthy people like Rockefellers and Kennedy's and McCain's wife. How does trusting the free market help normal working people? It doesn't. The free market wants cheap labor. That's why we have the illegal immigration problem we have today. NAFTA, which Clinton started and Bush kept going and McSame wants to continue, has been horrible for Americans and Mexicans, and very good for only the wealthy few.

Q: how does outsourcing all these jobs to India and Communist China help middle class Americans?

That's not what capitalism means. You, trading your values (time, effort, skills, etc) in return for values (a paycheck, satisfaction in job experience, etc) is an act of capitalism. You are most certainly working for a profit.

No no no. I gave you a working definition out of a dictionary. I get paid by the hour, a middle class wage. I certainly DON'T work for a profit. See Adam, this is where your argument falls apart. Just because I live in America, and am a typical American worker, doesn't mean I'm a capitalist. I'm just a worker. Period. A replaceable piece of meat. My boss would love to replace me (if he were a capitalist owner) for some illegal immigrant who would work for $10/hour without benefits. That way he'd make more profits. Fortunately we have a union (something the Republicans would love to eliminate).


The fact that you are working for a state institution muddles things a bit, but let's say for a moment the US mail system faced stiff external competition (and was not subsidized by taxpayers, so it would be run out of business if inefficient). That means that your employer pays you according to your value. How good/productive you are at your job, and how important your job is to the company, determine your compensation (monetary or otherwise). The most efficient deliverers of mail will then be paid the most to deliver mail. The competition means consumers receive their mail more efiiciently or more cheaply. You, competing amongst others in your institution, and your firm, competing against other firms, are striving for the maximum combination of personal production and value to the customer, which they receive on an ever-increasing basis. This is a good thing: the maximum combination of productivity, value, and efficiency, for yourself, the consumer, your company, and it's stakeholders.

It is breaches of this equation--by a large, monolithic, bumbling Federal government--which artificially disrupt this practice and lead to the kind of strife you're talking about.

I say this in all seriousness, and in full recognition of the fact that it's probably futile. But I hope you'll maybe just start to think a little more critically about the real source of these problems.

Mail delivery is a bad example. Think of jobs that have been outsourced. We used to make clothes in America. Tech support used to be something Americans did, not Indians with thick accents that you can't understand, but who will work for less. Why can't toys be made in America again? Why can't bicycles be American made by union workers who made a decent middle class wage?

I don't know why Republicans hate government so. What was your phrase "bumbling Federal government." Republicans are good at getting elected (using the fear card usually) but horrible at governing (I cite Ronald Reagan and the Bush family).

I wish you'd listen to Thom Hartmann, 760 radio, from 7-10pm weeknights. He talks economics. He explains it from a liberal point of view far better than I do. He also talks history as well as current events.

Tonight he was talking about how the policies of Alan Greenspan have destroyed our economy. These are Reagan and Bush policies. They reduced taxes on corporations but increased taxes on working men. Reagan preached that deficits don't matter. How many jobs have we lost monthly under W?

Every poll says that Americans believe our country is headed in the wrong direction, is on the wrong track. You can thank Republican philosophy and George W. Bush for that.