[nanwynnfan]

Don't know if this will add anything useful to the discussion; but my look at classifying starting pitchers follows the following outline:

1. It is historic, including pitchers whose careers occurred predominantly after 1901;

2. It is based on career numbers; and the final figures presented are for entire career, not prime years or any other modifiers;

3. Career games or IP are not weighted for longevity; they are career-to-date;

4. It is overview: I have not looked at park adjustements, although i have tried to relate pitcher inputs relative to the hitting climate of their times;

5. The key evaluator is WHIP relative to league, converted to pitching runs saved or lost vs. league.;

6. Pitching runs are then converted to wins on a very basic 10:1 ratio and a winning % for a team of each pitcher is projected ... down and dirty stuff ... back of the envelope; but I found some interesting and revealing results [for me, at least]. Some forgotten guys show up, pitchers who [IMO] deserve to be remembered with more respect than they usually get.

Career-based numbers reveal the effects of injury, loss of stuff and other pitfalls of brief & dramatic careers. Example: J. Vazquez, evaluated two-three years ago would have come up @ 1.06 runs saved/9IG and a win % of .624 = elite. Through 2006, he's dropped, carerr-wise, to .19 runs saved/9IG, with a win % of .521, modestly avove average.

I like Slica's use of the category "elite," which I was thinking of using before outlining this post. I also agree that the term "ace" is totally relative to the pitching staff involved.

Pitcher Name.............Runs Saved/9IG........Win %

P. Martinez.................... 1.82................. .726
L. Grove........................ 1.67................. .713
J. Santana..................... 1.51................. .684
C. Young....................... 1.43................. .672
R. Johnson..................... 1.42................. .672
R. Clemens..................... 1.37................. .664
M. Halladay.................... 1.12................. .633
G. Maddux..................... 1.07................. .626
T. Hudson..................... 1.02................. .619
W. Johnson................... 1.00................. .617
H. Brecheen.................. .97................. .614
B. Zito......................... .95................. .611
K. Brown...................... .95................. .610
J. Wood....................... .94................. .609
T. Bridges.................... .93................. .608
M. Mussina................... .93................. .608
D. Dean....................... .92................. .605
H. Newhouser............... .91................. .606
M. Buehrle................... .91................. .606
S. Chandler.................. .90................. .605
C. Schilling................... .90................. .605
G. Alexander................. .89................. .603
E. Ford........................ .88................. .602
C. Hubbell.................... .88................. .602
*S. Koufax................... .87................. .600
M. Parnell..................... .86................. .599
*S. Maglie.................... .83................. .596
L. Gomez...................... .83................. .595
J. Smoltz...................... .81................. .593
E. Walsh....................... .81................ .593

I'll cut the post off here, although it goes down to .70 runs/9IG which = .575 win percentage. There are some great pitchers, some personal favorites and some HoF that follow; and this is NOT meant to say that they are lesser pitchers than the guys listed. Example: Bob Feller lost almost 5 years to WW II and still came back strong; but he did have control problems early on and his post WW II career did have him on staffs that included guys like Bob Lemon, Mile Garcia, and Steve Gromek. Sandy Koufax also had big control problems early in his career and did pitch at a time when hitting was at an ebb.

The guys above, healthy and sound, would be elite in the most hellacious batting climate, would not walk their way into trouble, and would be they kind of pitcher you'd want to give the ball for a big $$$$ game [IMO].

*Sandy Koufax, inadvertendtly omitted in original post.
*Sal Maglie, inadvertently omitted in original post.